I have a young male deaf rescue here with likely the worst case of Obsessive Complusive & Anxiety disorder I have ever witnessed as a Vet Nurse therefore I wonder if anyone else has seen OCD or such disorders of any severity in the Koolie breed at any stage?

Hi Mushoz

I haven't seen any that you would say suffer the disorder but I could imagine some koolies developing it if they were under the right stress, some don't have self confidence and have to be nutured to build it up. Being deaf may have made it extra difficult for this guy to realise what he did/does is OK and so build confidence. You could see this become a cumalative problem if he has had a series of homes before reaching you.

Yeah Silhouette his case appears to be related to extreme boredom as a pup, however I was just curious is others have seen any such cases. Any breed, especially those with a working drive are vonerable to it but I'm moreso interested if anyone has had such problems & if so was there much response to medication as it idn't looking too good for this chap in the scheme of things.

Sorry to hear your having trouble, it is so hard on the deaf guys.
It's not that they have special needs as such but like all Koolies they need the mental stimuli.
I'm relieved to say that your Koolie is the first case to be recorded of such serverity.
I'm familar with the boy your refere to, I don't know if it will be of much help but in his time with us he was in his compound, he wasn't with us long enough to introduce him to the pack, but while he was in his compound which has a large indoor room as well as outdoor sand run he was very happy and showed no signs of stress.
I wish you all the best for him, I know it must be a real concern for you.
Let us know how you get on with him.

yeah it started instantly he arrived, I've spoken to the prev. owner & the problem came from chasing skinks, but not as bad as here, I think maybe the stress of the travel as he has 1/2acre to play, toys, bones & other dogs yet it has been an obsession since his feet hit the ground.

Did you have grass Tjukurpa? it is mainly focussed at the grass. Hoping medication will help but vet doesn't seem optimistic

OCD isn't something that affects particular breeds, it can have hereditary influence but mostly it is induced through stress, mental/chemical imbalance.

Tjukurpa you did say he was destructive/restless in the short time he was with you, just wondering if you has grass or not as I think that was his trigger here as the moment his paws tounched the ground & saw grass he was into in.

I'm actually in the process of uploading a video onto Youtube so I'll forward a link so you can see what I mean & get opinions from you guys.

I mainly was curious if anyone here has had (in any breed) an OCD dog of working lineage plus also as a warning I think as to what can happen if this breed like any working breed (not saying as in this case) if they get bored & not the appropriate mental/physical stimulation.

Hi Mushoz
Sorry to hear about your OCD fellow. What exactly does he do?
I did see quite a lot of dogs with OCD over the years that I was vet nursing. The majority of them developed self mutilation probs such as lick granulomas. Most were active intelligent breeds such as Dobermans, German sheppards poodles etc. Can't recall seeing a working breed, instead the workers were often refered for "bad habits" (suburbian boredom) such as chasing cars, digging up the back yard, pulling cloths of the line etc rather than OCD.

All of the OCD dogs I remember suffered from anxiety, usually from something such as being left for extended periods of time by the owner eg owner going to work. The insecurity of being left started small habits which progressed over time.

Certainly makes it difficult with your guy. Whilst diversions such as other dogs, toys etc would help any dog from developing OCD and possibly help your guy when you are with him, it is impossible to supervise him 24/7.

Maybe the relocation together with having to find his place in the pecking order with the other dogs is all a bit too much. Do you have any clues as to what is making him anxious? He just may be more suited to a one on one situation.

Have you tried to work him around stock? I know it may be difficult as he is a deafie. I do recall some dogs doing better when they were asked to perform tasks.

I remember a young cattle dog that was kept in suburbia that became VERY naughty. His owner was advised to do something with the dog as he was an active working breed. His owner began jogging with him...... Some months later the owner came to our clinic (looking fantastic!!). Despite taking the dog for a 10Km jog EVERY DAY, the dog was still naughty. He was then advised to ask the dog sit or lay down or shake hands etc at every corner when they were jogging. The 10 km was halved and the dog came home exhausted and slept the rest of the day. Not that that is an OCD story, but just wanted to point out that the mind is definately a muscle that does need excercise particularly with working breeds.

When you think about it we have bred our workers to have OCD to a degree.
It is the job of a worker to keep a whole mob of sheep together. See the look on their face and the jump to action (or anxiety) when a sheep breaks away from a mob. Yet it's all cool when the mob are together and moving as one. I do know of dogs that will separate white chooks from black chooks and hold them in two separate mobs. So to see a working dog turn his natural traits to another cause, really shouldn't surprise us.

I certainly don't envy you and wish you all the best with sorting it out. Keep us posted.

Sheringa

No grass here, just dirt.
No he never showed any signs of destruction, he never ripped up his blankets or bedding, never wrecked his water bucket or bowl.
But as I said he was in his own area, even though he could see the other Koolies, and got a run with them every day, it was only for about 1/2 hour.
Then I would put him back in his compound, whether the restricted access had something to do with his calmness I don't know.
But if he had shown any problems like those you refer to I would have investigated it with the previous owners, but as he showed nothing there were no concerns.
I know he went to one home before returning to the breeders, who kept him for some time, and then he was sent to us, then on to you.
For a deaf boy around two that may have been the trigger, too many passing from home to home.
I agree with Sheringa and I'm sure with your sibes it would be the same, we refer to it as a fixation which is what makes them excellent workers prepared to work till they drop, I just never considered it as a type of OCD it certainly isn't that extreme, but when you look at kelpies, now there's are breed who can't stop, their just driven. Fortunately Koolie are known for their stop button.
It is something to follow up on, mushoz I know your flat out but if you can, would you mind jotting your thoughts down on paper and possibly taking a shot of him doing what he does.
I would like to put it in the newsletter and see if we can get any other similar responses from the members.
No rush the newsletter goes out early September

Oh o.k Tjukurpa must have got wires crossed. He isn't 2 though, he isn't even 1yr old which is why I'm raising the topic as he is very young to have developed such problems & it hasn't been something he has gradually developed here it has been him since the moment he hoped out of the tranport & the next morning, we just assumed he'd never seen grass before, & maybe thats what triggered it but since that moment it has been the same thing day in day out with the poor fellow.

We are also looking into the possibility of him having some defect that is 'from birth' that is part of who he is/brain structure.

Sheringa - it isn't anxiety based, that was the first thing we looked at, it may have started as a boredom breaker or stress relief but he is in this habit now of unless he is physically on the end of a leash with physical reprimand each time he starts regardless of food, toys, bones, other dogs, sheep, ducks, pig, horse he may just hold focus on something for a moment (20seconds max) then straight back into this obsession. My vet hasn't seen this degree in a dog EVER!

Being deaf yes is a hinderance but unless you sat there if he could hear 24/7 & reprimanded him every 20sec that he started the result would still be the same.

The previous owner said that he developed this through hunting skinks with the other dogs, not as bad as this obviously (& I lay no blame whatsoever on them).

I thought that introducing him to stock/sheep in a yard with no grass & other dogs moving sheep around might redirect his efforts to something useful but nope he took a stalk on the sheep that lasted 10sec & I though bingo...then eyes to the ground & off he bounced & hunted skinks in sand surface & chased sheep poo as though they were mice.

I am in the process of uploading some footage onto youtube so will forward a link asap.

Footage on Youtube Here
here is a little bit of footage taken today of him moderately doing what he does, he is like this majority of the time however it is never any less than this, at it's worst he is literally squeeling & pouncing on something on the same spot for up to 20min. He is currently on medication but it could take 2-3mths to see a difference.

Now keep in mind this footage was taken 3.5hrs AFTER he started in the morning & like most days he continued to do this until 5pm, this is all he does during the day, all day regardless not stopping to eat or drink unless forced to. He doesn't lay down to rest, chew a bone, play with toys or be with other dogs, he may come to us for a moment when he sees us but is immediately straight back to this, hence he has to be physically stopped to eat otherwise he won't. We've tried putting him in a dogrun, where he did the same on the cement & squeeled as he wrestled feed/water bowls, on the chain he does the same thing & chases the chain, the only thing that stops him & his current routine is being crated at night, however he still spends time during the night chasing things in the crate, but at least he does get sleep & will eat & drink.

Now I've had so many think it's funny but when this is all he does day in day out unless you force him to sit & pay attention to you, it isn't funny at all so would like feedback as to what others think & would do in my situation.

He has been officially diagnosed by 2 vets as OCD & we will be taking him to a Behavioural Specialist shortly for a 3rd opinion as to what outlook we have for the longterm. We took him in as a special case being deaf & it will be last resort in his best interest to put him to sleep.

Sorry Mushoz don't know why I thought he was older.
Possibly he just wasn't with us long enough to see this problem.
I know you’re not laying any blame just trying to get answers and understand it all better.
It is pretty worrying, and I can see it has you stressed.
You’re doing everything humanly possibly.
Is it possible to take his DNA we can at least send it to the geneticists and get their opinions.
Can you send through the pathology reports as well, it helps them to understand the case better.
When it comes down to the line I know you will do what is right for him and for his quality of life, left like this I don't see him getting much quality time.
We all know he is in the best place for him and that you are giving him all the care and love he needs, better than most could or would.

Thaks TJ, we'll try all we can for him. If it comes down to that he will take time to eat drink etc. then we will accommodate his quirkiness but if it becomes too much for his quality of life we will make the appropriate decisions, we will give him ever chance though as he has grown on us & the small amount of time we get with him outside of it shows us the most affectionate beautiful dog so we will see how we go.
I will organise DNA etc. a bit later when we track his progress more.

Hi Mushoz

It is really good to be able to see the video. If this was the full extent of the problem, you would say he is having fun and keeping himself occupied. He wags his tail in a pleasurable way throughout. But as this is a lull in activity, I can fully understand your feelings. I don't know if this helps, or might give you an idea but I think koolies love routine and once a routine is set they see it as their job to maintain the routine. Fortunately most normal jobs for a koolie have a start and finish, for us getting the cows in in the morning, feeding out hay and moving animals around through the day and finishing up with getting cows in for evening milking. Perhaps he perceives that this is his job to keep all the real and imaginary skinks in order, but he has no trigger to tell him the job is done...just a thought. In my opinion if nothing more can be done for him, it all comes down to quality of life - is he suffering or getting some enjoyment out of his life however strange it may be? Certainly if he was an only dog it would be very difficult but if you can fit him into your life with his quirks and he is enjoying himself I would let him be, maybe with time he will begin to relax. Good luck.

Thanks Silhouette, the first thing we did & have done is establish a routine, but the best we can do is get him now to settle for a good part of the night in the crate next to the others that have a solid routine. If we try to reduce his chasing & replace it with another activity he will persist on the chasing at every opportunity & if he can't then it build up & builds up & as soon as he can he has ten fold more 'enthusiam' regardless how tired we make him & the problem becomes 10 times worse so presently his routine is chase skinks from 7am til beddown at about 5pm with a few 'on the leash to drink' during the day then meal & crate with a leash walk to do potty before we go to bed.

He loves his chasing skinks which is the problem more than anxiety as he must get the biggest high doing it hence the obsession...he's like an addict, in which we don't have too much issue with, but when it overrides will to sleep, eat & drink he lost a lot of weight until we literally forced food/water into him as well as appetite stimulants & now can get him to eat/drink at night but worry about him doing this when summer arrives with dehydration, we hope his medication will have helped by then.

Thanks for the feedback guys! Its a very unique situation.

I thought I would just update things with Patches.

I had an interested converstation with a vet yesterday who brought up a theory I never considered & that could indeed be what is happening in Patches case.

Whilst Patches' eyes aren't really that bad, being MM his eyes still aren't normal but aren't dropped/starbust/irregular pupils & the vet wondered if he sees 'stars' & 'wiggles' which vary in appearance/presence in different light ie. looking straight he wouldn't see them but looking down he does due to light reflection & with a grass, sand or sawdust type ground surface it would give the appearance to him that things are moving on the ground & accompanied by a high herding drive/fixation this disorder he has has been created.

I know he has a history of chasing skinks, but the vet thinks this has given him 'pleasure' & so with these 'stars' he's chasing he finds it fun rather than frustration...

what do you think of this theory?

Hi Mushoz

That really makes sense, we often don't even consider there may be a physical reason for behaviour particularly past the basic signs of good health. One thing that might also increase the likelyhood of the truth of that is that where you are the general weather conditions are sunnier/brighter than where he came from along the coast of Victoria which has experienced near normal conditions compare to our drought conditions. Considering the coast has higher rainfall and cloudiness normally it all could be more emphasized to him now and so increased the drive.

I thought I should give the final update on Patches for the forum, sadly he has been put to sleep.

He in the end became entirely unmanageable both the keep healthy & give a quality of life & also to handle.

He also during the excitement of going to the vet to be PTS got so hyped up in the waiting room he started seizing & had 2 massive seizures before the vet could put him down so it was clear that there was much more going on with poor Patches than first believed.

We are very sad but it was the best thing for him, he will be missed.

It's rotten when we are forced to do what we know is best.
I know he is in a much better place and free from everything.
You did a commendable job of caring and documenting his time with you Mushoz and that's afforded us a little more insite into these rare cases.

Sorry to hear the outcome, but sometimes we just have to make these decisions, and as you said there were obviously other problems as well,you did your best.

So sorry to hear, but you have made the right decision no doubt. I wonder if he had a brain tumour or something else that altered his behaviour to reach the stage of seizures... You did a fantastic job giving him the best chance he had, well done.

I am sad to here of your great loss...may Patches RIP....