I am interested in opinions from people on this forum as to responsibilities of breeders offering males at stud or using an outside male.

This topic came up on another forum (Koolie) as well as 2 large multi-breed forums & I found the responses interesting, especially from the Koolie people so far.

questions (not relating to any particular individual stud as this could be a common occurance for all I know);

If an owner or stud offers a male to outside bitches do they/should they have a responsibility as to screening the bitch to see if the mating could result in a negative outcome, in the Koolie in regards to double merle deaf/blind pups?

If in the event the litter has undesired results should the sire owner be held somewhat responsible or does it soley lie with the bitch owner sourcing the male of their choice, taking into account that some bitch owners lack the knowledge & understanding of merle related problems?

So far from Koolie people I have actually got the response that the bitch owner makes the choice & should live with it & it has nothing to do with the sire owner & if the bitch owner wants to use that male it is soley up to them to determine that it is the right match.

Personally I disagree simply because a lot of people do not have a clear understanding on merle related problems therefore they may not make wise choices based on their limited understanding THEREFORE the owner of the male should indeed have a responsibility in at least looking into 'risk' of such mating between 2 individuals.

Now saying this yes things can still go wrong but there IMO is a difference between it going wrong when you've done your best to prevent it, & just doing it without much thought & dealing with or removing yourself from the outcome as you didn't breed the litter (not the owner of the bitch)




I RAISE THIS SIMPLY AS IN EVERY BREED THERE ARE ISSUES, & NOT EVERY BREEDER IS EXPERIENCED & KNOWLEDGABLE WHEN IT COMES TO THESE SITUATIONS SO I HOPE THE FEEDBACK SERVES THE PURPOSE TO HELP THOSE IN MAKING RIGHT CHOICES FOR THE BREED.

Hi Mushoz

Extremely interesting and pertinant question and I would be very interested in the replies also.

It is very unfortunately that the relatively problem free breed that we have is saddled with one extremely devastating problem that being the results of the MM dog being the cause of the majority of blindness and deafness in koolies. This definately can be managed by making good educated breeding decisions.

In my opinion if a breeder chooses to take their bitch to an outside dog they take responsiblity for the results of that mating with regard to merle to merle maitings, BUT it behooves the stud owner to make the decision whether to supply the mating on the grounds that their dog has a 50% input into the outcome and so shares evenly responsiblity for the results (my dog didn't do that doesn't fly). Stud owners for their own sake and reputation need to 'take' responsiblity and not just go for a stud fee or return pup, but be prepared to say NO this mating isn't a good idea. Reputations have been ruined by people acussing the owner of a sire for the poor results, when it is the combination of the two dogs that cause all results.

I would suggest all sire owners should assess the mating they are requested to do, clearly explain any reservations and then if the owner of the bitch still chooses to go ahead either refuse the maiting or move into modern times and provide a written agreement where they spell out their reservations and the bitch owner signs a acceptance of responsiblity mindful of the stud owners reservations.

There is no doubt the safest way to guard against MM blindness and deafness is breeding a merle to solid. There is also no doubt that no matter what information you have about the dog or bitch for however many generations breeding merle to merle can give an MM result and blindness and deafness. It would seem that koolies have less problem than some other merle breeds but it seems that most successful merle to merle matings are dark merle dogs with plenty of solid base colour, not the pale light grey or those with extensive white.

Of course if there is a resessive genetic problem that is present in both lines that is known the mating should NEVER be considered.

Every koolie owner involved in breeding is responsible for protecting the breed and should think long and hard about the results they might get before going ahead.

Each kennel is responsible for doing their share of the screening, i agree that there is a difference between things going wrong after you have done everything in your power to prevent it and things going wrong after you had done nothing to prevent it. It raise questions as too motivation on the breeders part if no research is done and care as too health and well being of the pups are not at heart.

At the start of 2000 many of us didn't even understand genetics or there impact upon a dog.
Today information floods the Internet and is extremely easy to obtain.
You don't have to take the word of any one person over the other any more you can ask the experts in the field directly.
Merle to Merle breeding carries risks due to the MM factor resulting in deaf/blind white pups.
This you can't dispute.

Breeder reasonability is just that, every breeder, whether it is the Sire or the Dam must accept 50% of the resulting outcome.
This is a fact

Choice is a personal preference, you choose, no one holds a gun to your head, so what motivates your choice?

Improvement to the breed as a whole! Continuation of excellent bloodlines! Strengthening of bloodlines!
Money!
For the first three motivations, you would be selective in your choice, do your homework, way up your options, no one can claim ignorance about the Koolie breed, there is too much information and too many old qualified experienced breeders and genetic support now, not to be fully informed about this breed, don’t know what your doing, then ask someone who knows more until you know enough to make an informed decision and are prepared to stand by and accept your responsibility of the results.

I believe that the more experienced breeder has an ethical responsibility to guide and provide support to a new and untried breeder, supplying all the paper work in the world does not replace good old fashion talking, teaching, and sharing.

If Money is the main motivator, if a breeder feels that they have a right to keep increasing the fees, that they breed superior Koolies, then they can go for their lives, but I would like to see them be honest about it and not hide the fact behind justifications, of the cost to raise a litter or inoculate, micro-chip or register, not use that old line, "But it deters the bad guys".!
Breeding for profit is just that, breeders looking to make a profit out of breeding and selling, who will have multiple litters, or breed a bitch more than once a year, to simply supply a market.

We can speak about breeder responsibility for ever, but unless a breeder truly believes in the their breed of choice, truly respects and is dedicated to clean practices not just with the breeding but with the general public then responsibility will only be a form of blaming.

We each have our own thoughts and follow our own paths, Strength of honest sharing, Commitment to safe practices, Dedication to the breed not the breeding these are also responsibilities and need to be accepted and acknowledge just as equally as who shares the responsibility of the result of a litter.
The issues are complex and can not be separated into individual components but must be tackled head on as one objective if we are to have koolies in to our grandchildren's lives.

Tj is off the pulpit, don't throw stones

TJ you make a good point, things with the Koolie have changed somewhat in the past 5-10yrs as more is understood about merle to merle problems, BUT as a newcomer breeder myself, the whole back & forth about merle to merle being safe, unsafe, safe in various situations blah blah blah there are still so many people out there that just don't understand.

In the instance that a bitch presented with more white than the norm & not irish trim that the owner wants to put across your male which is a merle, one must ask the question of 'do they know about merle to merle' & at least raise the question that this is not a good idea, not just say well pay your money & live with the results as it isn't our decision to make....but it should be for the amount of damage it can do to a good dogs/stud's reputation if it goes wrong.

I thoroughly agree and believe, more experienced breeders do have an obligation to the breed if not the other person involved.

If we truly stand behind our mission statement to protect, preserve and correctly promote the Koolie Breed then we must advise, or at the very least have an informed opinion of the very real risks of merle to merle mating.

I'm not preaching or pushing my ideas or practices onto anyone, when a person comes to us to use our males, I ask about the history, I want to know about any previous litters, working abilities and character of the female, I ask for registration and membership, if they haven't any I offer it.(never miss an opportunity to invite others to membership, your doing them and their Koolie a favour)

If there is no history then I ask for guidance from older more experienced breeders who have years, decades of breeding behind them and follow their advice.

I don't have all the answers but at least if there ever is to be a problem from a litter that one of my males have sired then I’m going to be reassured that everything that could have been done was done and then I'll follow it up, take DNA samples, photos and records of the incident, so that we have it for the future.

I don't believe that my responsibilities stop with the service or the selling of any of our Koolies

The Koolie is lucky in comparison to other breeds. I mean realistically having double merle issues isn't rocket sciene to avoid if you even read the basic genetics on it regardless what your believe in merle to merle matings, if you want to breed merle to merle then at least look into whether your dogs are heterzygeous or homozygous as a big difference in the outcome is right there & looking at a line of ancestory where available can achieve that, if no history is available then a good look at the individual can help, eye colour & if blue eyes is it blue or pale white blue & look at the pupils of the dog, does the dog have white on it other than Irish Trim, all of these little things go a long way to helping make a wise choice.

In other breeds like my Huskies things are a LOT different, we have to look at things like tail set, bite, eye shape, earset, shoulder angles, height, weight....we have recessive issues like overbites, retained testicles, & behavioural issues.

I DON'T offer my males at Stud (huskies) as the stress for me to ensure I am taking all tit-bits of history & likely recessive issues & clash of lines & if we sire a litter that comes out with things like tail set issues or incorrect movement we get severely judged & critisised by other breeders....so it's not worth the hassle. In kennel breedings thats a different matter as we know what we have & can study results.

It makes me a little angry that with really only 1 problem in the Koolie to worry about people are still somewhat careless & irresponsible.

Well it is hard to believe that with so little to worry about we still cant seem to get it right. You are right mushoz it is up to us breeders to be informed and breed accordingly. Every bit of knowledge has its purpose with merle breeding. Knowing whether your merle is homozygous is a start but from my understanding the breeding of heterozygous merles also can result in birth defects, granted it is a less risky breeding then a homozygous merle but stil CAN result with the same problems. Therefor even if i was studing my dog out to a outside kennel i would not be part of a merle to merle breeding.

yes leecos I to share that ideal, but not all do so trying to lessen the risk in anyway helps.

Dear mushoz

I have I believe posted elsewhere on this forum that I don't believe that dogs should be put to stud atall.

I will give my reasons for this as follows:
1: it would severly restrict the gene pool if too many people used the same stud dog.

2: how do we know that the stud dog doesn't have a genetic condition that would harm the breed

3: I have a couple of posts on the forum at the moment describing a genetic problem that exists in many koolies and if this isn't addressed it could mean the end of the koolie breed.

I think that not being able to discuss these problems openly without people getting their noses out of joint is unfortunate and it may cause serious problems down the track.

Jack @ Wilja Koolies

last year a lady asked if she could send a bitch to Quin. my reply to her was i need to see a pic of her first, which the lady sent me, i was not happy with the look of the bitch she was a cross bred dog now you are thinking so is Quin well yes he is he has border in him which is a working breed this bitch was a cocker spanil x koolie so i told her nicely no and i will also say no to any unsuitable mating let say some one asks if they could send a bitch to Clay as she wants a red merle mating, now he has the irish trim and this bitch has also a irish trim (lets say she looks like Dance) i would say no to Clay being put to her but i would offer Drumma instead as he has very little white on him or even Quin as he carries red in his lines. and as my dogs are not related to most of what other people have i would not be cluttering up the gene pool

Royalla, that's an interesting point. Most people like the nice dark Merles for obvious reasons being we worry about white pups and deafness etc. Do you consider that Irish trim parents contributes to the whitening up of a pup? I always thought the white from double merle breeding was different to the white from Irish trim and was from a different gene, or have I misunderstood you?

The Irish trim is a different gene, but it doesn't hurt to be cautious.
I allow my males to cover bitches which are approved, normally in our own bloodlines, but if a bitch outside our lines was what we believed an excellent example of the Koolie then we would allow it.

Many breeders choose to own a female and select from offered males from other breeders, also there are those breeders who wish to introduce a totally different bloodline to theirs in order to strengthen or improve it.

Many of us are aware of flooding the gene pool and make sure to insure they restrict the use of their males.
As all our Koolie’s are DNA tested I am confident that they do not pass on any genetic problems.

I'm so proud that we can have these open conversations, this forum is so unique, no one objects to anyone expressing their opinions, and it allows us to collect so much useful information all in one area for everyone to read regarding the Koolie breed.
So not to worry that, no noses out of joint and no serious issues in the future.

Tjukurpa, I've asked this question before but I don't think I got it, but as I understand it, Irish trim is white on the chest or around the collar area? Is this too limited a description of Irish trim. Is there more to it?

The Irish trim is said to be a white collar, white feet, white chest a white line down the forhead and a white tip on the tail.

I understand that most Collie lines carry this to one degree or another.

That's more or less what I thought. Thanks. :) I've never seen a BC without it for example, and rough collies too.

Yes, it would be a very rare individual in those breeds that wasn't homozygous for that gene (sisi). That seems to be what is required to consistently and 'neatly' (I'm thinking ' perfectly' but you know I don't mean there's anything wrong with not having the full irish pattern - except that Wal is sisi and soooo handsome) get that patterning. When a dog is genetically S(not spotted)si - as lots of Koolies are - then they will probably have at least some white spotting in those areas.

Many breeders of the past have claimed that a koolie is not pure without an irish trim and at least one blue eye, although just as many seem to think they shouldn't have the irish trim as it implicates a crossing with the bc...one of the reasons the club does not tell breeders how to breed their dogs. The irish trim and the the white from merle are different genes but can be indistinguishable from each other while looking at the dog. Where does the trim finish and the white start? Certainly white on the body and over the back is more likely from the merle. So when considering breeding what are you looking at when considering the suitability of a mate?? One reason why I try to recommend people select dark merles for breeding as white from merle to merle matings seems to increase as the merle lightens.