Hi Everyone,
This might seem like a really dump question but after reading all about the DNA testing the KCA does I was wondering what it is all about. I am new to the club (as you can tell) and have not had anything to do with DNA testing before. What can a DNA test show? How is it done? And pritty much who? what ? where? when?
Thanks for your help!!!!

Others that run this will offer full info, but basically it is used to collect data on the breed, identify the koolie gene for knowing it is a Koolie, for detecting merle concentration (ie Mm & MM) as whilst some people prefer the idea of solid to merle breedings, others still don't use that practise & it has been understood & shown that the Koolie's merle behaves a bit different to other merled breeds (therefore this is where a lot of safe experiences with Mm x Mm have been recorded...but in that litter some of the pups will be MM with or without the defects so this is espcially useful in regards to detecting who is what).

My main intertest in the DNA is (due to being a solid x merle person) is gathering info on the double merles with defects as I have deaf rescues & hope to help in this regard.

Ok Thanks for your help. I was not sure if say you have a cross breed then it would be able to tell you what crosses are in their to make up the dog etc etc. I now the great work that DNA does to help with breeding and understand what a great help it must be for breeders

Silhouette & Tjukurpa etc can help with the full run through, so sure they will offer more when they come on the forum.

Those are good questions Rachellebuck, this is what i have gotten from my breeders: that they are using GenTest/VetGen DNA profiling and that they are using the ISAG marker set to determine canine profiles and parentage. There are 18 pairs instead of 10 which gives a more definative genetic profile of your dog. I am not aware if it is the same test done by KCA, Tjukurpa or silhouette will know. This is very informative thank you all :)

Silhouette is the one with her head around this, I just wave the flag because it's all good for the Koolie breed.

yes a lot goes over my head as well, but I think like me a lot of people are happy to submit DNA when required or requested & let those that fully understand it get the benefit for the breed from it.

I can do this with the deaf/double merle Koolies & dogs that haven't yet been done.

Hi Rachelle, sorry it has taken me a little while to reply, life as usual is hectic and the dang phone keeps ringing as well.

We were very fortunate to meet up with a scientist working on the proposed Pedigree Assurance Program that is being proposed for the ANKC. He has worked extensively on DNA in firstly birds and then animals in general since the science was first initiated. Fortunately for us, he is more of an inquisitive scientist than a business man and when he heard the story of the koolie and how it is a uniquely Australian breed he became quite intrigued. This led to an intensive education in all things koolie (picture myself and TJ sitting down with this poor guy and him inocently saying...so tell me about koolies??) Well he got chapter and verse and was invited and duely came to a meeting and met dogs and people and was blown away.

He offered to us the opportunity to submit as much DNA as we could find in a short space of time and he would help us to analyse it in the hope of finding the koolie gene. Along side this the results would immediatly allow us to verify parentage of any dog tested (as long as parents were tested as well) and they would be able to run certain disease tests that were available at the time (approximately 2 years ago). I became an acredited collector with the company and we quickly got together 60 or so samples and were trying to colate patterns and anomolies in the results, when their company became involved in negotiations with a company overseas that had perfected a breed specifity test. This company has already isolated genes for many mainstream breeds of dogs. Our guys have accepted the koolie as their research breed with regard to the test and once negotiations and legal stuff is complete they will use the koolie database to initiate their use of the test. Unfortunately negotiatons have been held up for legal reasons and we sit and wait for that to be resolved. In the meantime we can continue to collect DNA, although I have been concentrating on straight koolies. When the test does become available it will be extremely relevant to cross bred koolies though as it will nominate the percentage of each breed present. You may think your dog is a Koolie cross with a Kelpie say but not knowing the background of each dog the kelpie may alread carry 6.25 or 12.5% koolie from a breeding several generations ago which means your dog is actually more than 50% koolie. When we reach this stage I will be putting to the committee to look at changing our registration levels to reflect this percentage. They tell me it will also tell us what other breeds are involved (provided the breed has been already identified). This is only good news as we all know that over the years good koolies have been bred to other breeds just because there was no other koolie available and good working lines can be bred back to pure lines.

They are able to test for several diseases though and as with the breed test are happy to use our database to test the tests, so far all dogs have been screened for some relevent tests such as IVM Ivermectin Sensitivity MDR1, all clear. At our request they were also negotiating for access to the Merle gene test. Once DNA is collected it is kept on record permanantly and if a breeder wished to test for one of the other tests they already have established they would be welcome to order the test at the retail price.

Good news recently was that the company has recently developed new software for analysing the results and they tell us they will be able to nominate family lines for each dog. From the work we have done it is rather facinating to see where some results pop up across the population.

In the meantime we have set up our own Koolie Pedigree Assurance Program (although time has worked against me getting the computer to transfer results from how I receive them and putting them into the database to be printed out again..one of those little curly problems computers throw at you - got it sorted once and got some certificates done and then the results turned up in a different format). The KPAP recognizes koolies that are registered, micro-chipped and the sample has been taken by an authorized tester or veterinarian, by appending their registration number with a 'D'. The test is only a buccal swab of the skin cells from the cheek which is simple to take. Other koolies can be tested or owners choose to collect their own but results will not be verified as true by the company or the club. These results are still useful for breeders to verify parentage which means it is a tool that could be used say in multiple sire breeding. Also when the merle gene is available or another genetic disorder, breeders can use the results to breed wisely. Say if a dog has one copy of a faulty gene, you can use the test to screen possible mates to find one that does not carry the gene at all, then use testing of the resultant pups to select pups that have not inherited the gene to breed on from. Pups that have inherited the gene could be de-sexed and sold as working or companion dogs because the gene would not affect them as they would still only carry the one copy of it. This way DNA testing can be used to breed diseases out of existance.

With regard to the merle gene as has been stated elsewhere our problems arrive when there are two copies of the gene present as in MM. Not all have problems but the fact is a Mm result is safe hence the recomendation of breeding solid to merle because one gene is inherited from each parent a solid cannot contribute the M gene so if the other parent is MM no puppies will result in MM. Unfortunately some dogs that appear to be solid are genetically merle because they only show a minute amount of merle as little as a couple of hairs. With the merle test true merle or solid dogs can be identified and then bred in the same way as above. An interesting fact though is that a MM dog bred to a solid mm dog will give all resultant pups a Mm and will be merle, which is much safer than continuing the chance of breeding MM to MM which is risked more and more with each generation of merle to merle breeding no matter how many generations you have knowledge of.

With regards to the genes used for parent verification there are 10 pairs used initially, if a result is not completely clear another 10 pairs are used, then another 10 pairs until they are satisfied. Of course with diseases and colour etc they know which gene or set of genes to look at specifically and they are the only ones analysed.

Sorry for the long waffle but it's not a one paragraph subject. Happy to answer any more questions if I can.

So what is the current status/availability of the merle test Silhouette? As a fan of using solids I do worry about the possibility of my solid actually being a minimal merle so this would be of great use to me.

Thank you, I think I have learnt more reading that than I ever did in year 10 science!!!!! Thank you for the information, I can understand why this is so important not only breeders but all Koolie owners in general. I would be very interested in testing my dogs to see what breeds they have in them (Could be very scary though!!)It is like a quality check on you dog I guess. Thank you!!!!!!!!

Hi
Mushoz the last time we had contact it was in the negotiating stage, I try not to haunt them but it is time for an update so will see what I can find out. There is no doubt that the test will make the old days seem like we bred blindfolded.

Rachelle
I'm glad it made sense and didn't just confuse you. Yes it is huge for the breed and it's future not to mention for responsible breeders breeding plans. Certainly there is no problem testing your dogs for you ready for the day the breed spicifity test becomes available and you just may be suprised. Imagine though that some dogs having the "other breed" revealed may just unravel some problems like behaviour and how to deal with them.

So will you test dogs that are not Koolies???? I am just asking as mum has an ACD x that we got from the lost dogs home and it would be interesting to find out what she really was. It might also explain the mental sessions she sometimes has. I would be really interested in have my dogs tested. Wouldn't it be great that we would be able to say for sure that this dog is say a Koolie (75%) x Border Collie (25%) or something to that effect!!! It is just so amazing that they will be able to do that one day as well as tell you what make up your dog it. It will take all the guesting work out of cross breeds and also breeding. A break though for all I think

Hi Rachelle
Any dog will be able to be tested through GTG, the lab we are working with (a link to their site is on our forum)as long as the breeds that make it up are already specified. I think they would have quite a lot of breeds done now though, of course that would incurr their standard fees. As far as cross breds go I think all we will be looking to do are those that want to register their dogs in our C section and plan to breed them to koolies to increase the percentage they carry. It certainly will be a breakthrough it will give breeders facts and will authenticate any breeding that is carried out and if all breeding is undertaken to improve your line then it would give a very strong signal that the outcome would be just that before a mating is done.

So true. Thanks for all your help!!!

This is what will make an enormous positive impact of the dog world not just the Koolies, there is so much genetic fault in all pure breeds that a Bill has been put before the government house to ban all breeding from cats and dogs who have genetic problems.
This would spell the extinction of many breeds.
With this new DNA testing as Silhouette put it we can identify the problem gene and screen potential breeding stock and avoid going down the same path, I just wish it was all up and running.



Having access to this test would have saved me time and concern when I put my 2 solid blacks together to prove the point that Koolies who appear solid may in fact be merle, so many good Koolies have been culled because they were believed to be useless when all the time they were merles and very important to the breed.
From that mating I had three solid? Silhouette can you tell me will they all be merle, I know one is, but not sure about the others.
The other three pups in the litter were merle, strong colour, pricked eared and the whole litter works stock.
Like Mushoz I look forward to knowing my merles from my solids, as when I send breeding pairs overseas I like to send a solid and a Merle, so this test will be a great advantage to us.
Our present method of choosing hasn't let us down, but DNA proof will just be all the better.

Obe is one of those isn't he Kerrie (from the above mentioned litter)?

I like the darkness of Obe's undercolour, in the shade you sometimes can't even see his merle.

I got a flyer about the new Bill, about how it is going to shut down backyard breeders (hopefully.

As with getting the tests themselves going, breeding any problem out of existance will take time...probably a long wile, but this at least gives us the tools to head in the right direction and each breeder can take responsiblity for a breeding decision made, they may even decide the sum benifits of the mating may outway the risk of the breeding but then they should follow the risk through and test all offspring and only breed on from those that have been lucky enough to dodge the problem or inturn only carry one copy of the gene and mate them to a non carrier. Can't say without the test, you have proven at least one of those solids is genetically a merle and that a dog with a few white hairs may infact be a merle, the offspring would have to be bred with another solid with no resultant merles out of 200 or so pups before you could say with any certainty they were not in fact genetically merled.

Thank god DNA will tell us faster.
Yes Obe is from that litter.
It is amazing what we humans do in ignorance, our forefathers knew what they were about, they might not have understood the genetics but they certainly knew their breeding methods to have produce this breed and to have it still breed true to type over 160 years later.

Unfortunately the Bill really targets the honest registered breeder, who take their animal to vets for regular check ups, the backyard breeder fly’s under the radar never seeking out vets, leaving that to the poor bugger who gets stuck with their garbage.
The only way to stop breeders for profit is to educate the general public, what to look for, what to ask, and most importantly who to contact when discovering your dealing with a backyarder.

Micro-chipping will help as will DNA testing, inoculating, worm/ flea programs and registration of the litters to the Koolie club.
It all gives breeders a greater reputation for correct ethical breeding practices, so the public will turn to these breeder before the breeders for profit, keeping our fees down hurts them as well.
It sends a very strong message to the public, if we can afford to raise and care properly for our pups, if we breed from a list of clients, so we have no left over pups, then the choice is very simple.

But getting back to the Bill.

If we were to incorporate screen testing for genetic diseases, we could safely breed away from the problems, then there would be no call to have a ban.

Remember according to genetics, the merle gene is flawed genetics creating defects, we may very well find ourselves on that list if this Bill gets through.

I haven't seen the reference about genetics in the Bill flyer I got, is it Federal or State Tj?

The Bill flyer I got states the restrictions in
-Banning sale of dogs/cats in Pet Shops
-Prohibits the advertising 4 sale in any media (internet included) for more than 6days a year unless a registered breeder, pound or vet.

If you have more info that is Federal TJ can you post a topic on it?

I remember maybe about 10 yrs ago talk that breeding merle dogs in the EU would be 'banned'. Don't know whether it happened or not.

Libby

I was sent an email about it back around the 14th of October, the Bill was due to be passed or regected on the 25th of October.
At the time of the email, there was very little opposition against it being passed.
I'll see if I can find the link and post it for you.

Haven't heard anything more, so can't tell you the outcome, though I have been asking around as I am quite concerned.

oh cool, you'd think something would be posted somewhere about the outcome. I got a flyer from Dogs NSW (formerly RNSWCC)...it says on the flyer
'members are asked not to confuse the current legislation in Victoria which has major problems for dog breeders in that state....'
so maybe the Bill's being passed a State (with Vic by the sound of it coping a hard deal) not Federal as it pretty much says for NSW that you can't advertise to sell pups if your not a registered breeder & Pet Shops can no longer trade cats & dogs....

Sorry back to the DNA testing just a question, I get that it just a sample from the dogs mouth and I guess it then gets sent to their lab but what costs are involved and how long does this all take??????

Hi Rachelle
Shhhh don't tell anyone....but for the time being it is FREEEEEEE!!! But it can take quite a while as we are at the mercy of time, when they get some spare time we get some tests processed. The sample is actually skin cells from the cheek not just saliva.

Ohhh OK cool. I asked my vet about it once and he said he wouldn't do it cos of the costs. I will be a mouse about it. I am not worried about time, my girls are 2 and 4 and I don't plan on getting rid of them if I don't get the result I would like.

Never ever think we would suggest someone get rid of their dog because of the result not being what is expected!!! It is a tool only to tell us what it is we are dealing with to make breeding decisions in the future also hopefully to find relationships and just what might make up our modern koolie.
Don't worry about the vet taking your samples, I can do them at a meeting or next time I can drag myself up to Elmore in time.

Don't worry I was only joking. I couldn't get rid of my girls. I would have to spend to much time with the OH if I didn't have the girls to fuss about with!!!! Maybe I will get his DND tested and I will get rid of him if he doesn't have good DND and get some more Koolies!!!! LOL JK. Don't stress yourself about it heaps of time to get it done in!!!! Thanks for the help!!!!

Have had an update from our DNA lab, they are hopeful of having the breed specifity test available to us early in the new year (this could mean June really) but are currently finalizing their arrangements. They expect that testing for 160 breeds will be available by that time, this will only work in our favour as it gives us much more data to work with if there are crosses in our history and help us make good breeding decisions in the future.
Also in regard to the merle gene test this is on it's way also, again they are negotiating the contract and were interested to know how many we might test...I said everything!!! Not sure just when it will be available but it doesn't sound like long. You will read it here first.

Great news, it has been a long time coming, being able to identify the breed in any way will help with identifying rescues in pound especialy the solids, it may even impact on backyard breeders, only time will tell.