Hi all,

The local dog obedience club is on its Christmas break and I've started a few exercises with the new pup (Ziggy - age 6 months) in preparation for their first meeting in February.

I'm a rank amateur at obedience, but I have Don Weston's book 'Dog Training: The Gentle Modern Method' and Ziggy and I are working through it.

Ziggy is going great guns. Much better than I expected. I'm amazed at how much he's picked up in just a week. He can now sit, drop, stay, stand, return on command and has started to heel today. Of course he's not consistent yet - neither am I, we're both beginners and, of course, he's much better when he can smell the food rewards in my pocket.

But, before I go much further, I have a few simple obedience questions.

1) For competitive obedience, does it matter which hand you signal with? I'm left handed and if it doesn't matter I'll continue with the left hand, but if it does, then I'll change to the right hand.

2) For competitive obedience, which side of you should the dog walk on (left or right)? I've been training Ziggy to the left side.

3) Are there any things that a dog should be able to do without a signal (such as sitting when you come to a stop from heeling)?

4) Are there any other books, etc I should be looking at?

Thanks,

Michael

Hi Michael,
For competitive obedience the dog should be on the left side,when you start walking and want your dog to come with you start off on your left foot...if you want the dog to stay start off with your right foot.

As far as hand signals go I use my right hand (I am right handed) as its eaiser for me but I use my left hand to signal to heel.

you are better off doing several of 10 - 15min lessons than one big one if you can, to keep it from getting boring.

At this age and level of training you should use signals and tell the dog sit as soon as you come to a halt and treat... after around 2 weeks the dog usually has an idea to sit when you stop(some take longer)just use the signal ,if the dog sits reward if not tell it to sit but do not treat,try again the dog picks up pretty quickly what it needs to do to get the treat.

I believe there is more to training than Sit stay etc.you need to have an understanding how a dog thinks to be able to effectively get it to do what you want,your dog needs to see you as the leader.
there are many dog training books out there but some I recommend are
cesar millan - cesars way
cesar millan - be the pack leader
the dog whisperer- John Richardson and leslye sharon cole
How to teach an old dog new tricks - Ian Dunbar
sirius puppy training - Ian Dunbar

Hope this helps sheree.

Thanks sheree_e4,

That's fantastic. I'll look around for some of your suggested books.



Michael

I was thinking about putting a question about books today and you have beaten me to it, great minds think alike.

I have read Cesar Milan's books and they are a good read. I also read a book call "How Dogs think by Stanley Coren" which I lent out and has since gone missing, so I am off to get a new copy. This is a good general dog psychology book.

But the other two that I am going to buy is "The other end of the leash by Patricia B McConnell" and "Why do we love the dogs we do by Stanley Coren". Both have received good reviews. Has anyone read these two at all?

With the obediance keep it short and fun. With my two I am at week two, and we are doing sit, heel, stay, drop and come. With precise hand signals and bridging words, for eg, you tell your dog to drop, they drop you say YES and give them a treat. They associate the word YES for doing the correct thing. Just have fun

Another book worth reading is The Dogs Mind by Bruce Fogle, very informative, well written and easy to read book...

OOOh my favorite subject

I love Fogle and Ian Dunbar is excellent to work with, if you ever get a chance to go to his lecture or workshops, do it.

God I wish I had more time to read, I'd never do anything else.

Competition Obedience: (write to the VCA and get a rule book, a must)
• Done on the left.

• Voice and signal commands can be given once at the commencement of each heeling exercise, and for the stand, drop, stay and recall

• Signals can be given with either hand, must be given clearly, once and the hand returned to the lead or your side.

• Holding of the lead: can be held in one or two hands.

• Sits and turns are the only exercises without signals.

• Collar, can be fixed, slip or check(no halti’s)

• Turns must be sharp 45 degree turn, about turns must be 180 degree on the spot or pivot, (for the left about turn only,) dog must remain close to the handler, lead must remain loose, no wide turns, no dogs in front(forging) or behind(lagging).

• The perfect healing position is your dogs shoulder in line with your knee.

• All sits, stands and drops must be straight and in line with your left leg, not in front or behind.

• The heel work must be preformed at three speeds. Slow. Fast and normal pace which must be brisk, the majority of the heel work is done in normal pace.

• A figure of eight will be included in the heel exercise,(usually around two people)

• The recall will be a brisk pace and the dog must sit in front(straight)I know it can be done differently in CCD but realy your dog will need to do it proparly for all the other titles so why not start as you mean to go.

• The finish of the recall the dog can return either around behind the handler and back to the heel position or flip! (going to the handlers left side, turning around and placing itself in the heel position) all on one command and signal.

A pivot left about turn is you do a left turn and the dogs does a right turn, circling you, you need to swap the lead from left hand to the right hand and back again, once you have completed the turn.
I find doing the pivot does not help your dog do clean left turns, as it is always trying to cross you to do an about turn and runs into your legs.

A good left about turn should see your dog back up as you turn about to the left, staying at your side the whole way, this way each time your body begins to turn either for the left or left about your dog will still be backing up out of your way.(no squished feet)

As you and the dog improve the dog will begin to read your body signals, the way you drop your shoulder before a turn or turn your head, or which leg you use for which exercise.

These are all cues that will help your dog to understand your wishes better.

So it is very important right at the beginning to have it clear in your head what it is that you are trying to train him.

Do you want him to watch you or look for the treat.
I don't use food as it is too unreliable in my opinion, I know I have seen some great results and I don't give any one a hard time about using it.

A dog that works for its tucker is one thing, but I see too many bribes, not rewards and I don't have pockets, so don't shoot me, to each his own.
Handlers just automatically ancourage others to use it because they like it, food isn't for everyone and can cause a lot of problems in the wrong hands (most inexperienced handlers) unless taught properly.

In order to be prepared for advance classes and to save time, once Ziggy has the basics down, which are the sit, drop, stand, stay, recall and heel.
Start to teach a sit signal from in front of him, you can include the drop signal as well, delivered from in front of him, when you reach UD(top class) you will do signal exercises(no voice) so it is best to have your dog doing it reliably very early.(stand right in front of him, so you can lean over and put him into the sit or drop if he misses the signal) Say and give the signal/command only ever once never more.

Koolies love bridging words, I say yesssss when Titch gets it right doing sheep work and it only makes her work harder, she gets are real feel of my enjoyment with her effort, as she has improved I use it less, but I always finish on a high note and a big cuddle and pat, to thank us both for a job well done.

Tip for good heeling, take yourself off to the tennis court and walk the lines, on your own, without your dog, get to know how you walk those lines and corners, what's your shoulders, head, hip and feet doing as you about turn, which leg goes first as you come out of an about turn(Should be your left one always for left about or right about and the turns as well)

Then when you have it in your head what your dog will be taking his cue from, accentuate those movements just a little to begin with.

Example to do a left about turn, turn your head and shoulders first then follow through with your hips and legs.(Ziggy sees your head and shoulders, moves back because he knows you are turning, so you don't bump into him or step on his toes)and the lead stays loose.

With the right about turn, same thing, turn your head and pull your shoulder around then move your hips and feet(Ziggy sees your head and shoulders move and fastens up to stay with you as you make the smaller rotation and remains beside) and the lead remains loose.

If you do wide short circles with Ziggy on the inside he will learn to stay close to you and his stand, sits and drops will be straight, this also helps with his left about turns and left turns.

If you rotate on the spot for the right about turn he will learn to stay close there as well, he will need a lot of right knee slapping(your right knee)to keep him with you and the lead to remain loose.

A good test with a Koolie is try to do a wide short circle with Ziggy on the inside off lead, take note how much harder you have to work to keep his attention.

Five minute work outs keep you both keen and wanting more, just be sure to end it on something he is really good at and then play a game, that's a real reward for a Koolie.

Any more questions bring them on.

I like both of these. The Coren is interesting, perhaps helps develop knowledge of breeds' personality tendencies, but isn't really about training.

The McConnell is one of those classic, life-changing books, bit like Culture Clash, that make you consider what dogs are really like and how that relates to what ppl are like.

IMO

My own faves are The Complete Idiots Guide to Positive Dog Training (Pam Dennison) - it's got all the important basic stuff in it - and Click for Joy (Melissa Alexander). The later leans towards competition training and clarifies lots of things about clicker training. Also The Clicked Retriever (Mitchell) for obedience retrieving. And although I don't hold that dogs deliberately use calming signals to calm other dogs, I still believe that On Talking Terms with Dog (Turid Rugaas) is the best book to use in learning to read body language, although Pam Dennison's book has a good section on it. Also Jean Donaldson has a new DVD (Perfect Paws in 5 days, think it's called) that looks wonderful. I've only seen clips, it may be a bit basic, but it does the basic beautifully, and that's important, I think. And Patty Ruzzo's books on comp obedience are in print. She was very respected.

Ok, I'll stop now.

Dogwise.com is the place to go to look for dog training books.

Thanks everyone. It might prove to be a very expensive Christmas for all of my relatives!

Thanks for all your suggestions too, tjukurpa, they're fantastic. It's got me excited about the posibilities and Ziggy is definitely up to it (it'll be good for me as well as him). I've printed off the entire thread.

Cheers,

Michael.

hey TJ how about you move up here to Q.L.D i need a personal trainer as there is no training here

What and either melt or harden like leather.
I don't have much brain juice as it is I am afraid it would totaly evaporate if we moved up there.

But we're all coming in April, that will keep us all going until we next catch up.

A lot a training is just common sense, you just have to take time to sit back and really take in everything that's going on, like sheep training.

How you react to what, how that impacts on your dog, how your dog impacts on you, how outside influences impact on you both.

Most importanty how the handler interpates any given situation as to how the dog interprates the same information, are you both recieviing the same message, or in the case of training the same cue/command.

I have probably made training sound very complext when it isn't at all.
So I shut up now.

Just remember that pups and dogs are very sensitive to the way their handler is feeling - if you're worried,stressed or angry about something, they will pick that up and their responses to your commands may not be what you want them to be!
If your pup has trouble with a command and things aren't going right, finish the training session, but finish it with something you know he can do well, that way he is still convinced he is brilliant and wanting to try for you next time....... always finish training on a positive note.

Dr Bruce Fogles' 'Australian Dog Training' book is a great easy book to start training with and has a few problem solving tips too.

Isn't it Bob Bailey who says 'training is simple, but it isn't easy'? So true - a few basic principles and then a life-time of developing and refining your ability to apply them.

Well everyone has already mentioned everything I have would of said. The best suggestion I can think of when working a softer dog is SMILE!!! Sounds silly but if you have a mean tone or upset face they know it and WILL NOT WORK. I would say get onto www.vca.org.au and order their obedience rule book (aka the blue book) and read it really really well. Mum has just found a line she didn't read but she had to find out the hard way "you need three passes to get a title under at least 2 differant judges" well she got three from the same judge so had to go get another pass for a differant judge to get the title, so read the book really well. If you don't mind me asking what club are you looking at attending??? PM if you like. What other "sports" does your club do ie: agility, flyball, tracking etc to brake up the obedience cos I find this smarties get really bored very quickly.

I will add my little bit. I have found with my koolies, they are very sensitive and learn extremely quickly, both good and bad. What works with my ACD's does not necessarily work with my Koolies

I learnt with my first Koolie 'Precious' how sensitive the breed can be. She'd been abused before I got her from the RSPCA, so I had to go especially gentle. She'd cower if you lifted your hand to signal 'sit.'

It broke my heart each time.

But she taught me the first lesson of training - to earn her trust.

Also that if a dog is too upset they can't concentrate. A lot of love and patience and re-socialisation had to happen to make up for the past abuse before we made much headway with the 'real' training stuff.

She's great now though, but still a little wary in strange situations.

Ziggy is still doing well, though not as well as last week. He went through a few days over the weekend where he just wasn't into it, but then again, he IS still settling in to our family, etc.

Precious is getting along well with him now and we're all enjoying his lovely, gentle, laid back nature. Especially my wife, Lynette, who has taken a real shine to him. For the first time EVER, Lynette now allows dogs on the bed!!

And Ziggy just loves to cuddle up to her like a cat!

He's a delightful dog and it's obvious he started out in life with a lot of love because he's so confident and happy. He's gaga about the kids too - especially our two and a half year old.

He's such a clown in a happy puppy kind of way and he's had great fun pulling the baubles off our Christmas tree.

This week I've been trying to withdraw the treats during training sessions but the only things he will do without a treat is to sit and stay. He won't drop unless I have a treat in my hand.

But I'm a very patient man and we'll get there eventually. And I'm learning a great deal from this thread. I'm trying to introduce some bridging words ('yes' and 'no') and that seems to be starting to work. I'm also consciously thinking about my own body movements and how the dog might pick up on/interpret them, how consistent I am with hand signals, etc. When I tell Ziggy to stay, I move off on my right foot. When I get him to stand (which he will still only do for a treat), I move off on the left foot.

We keep the training sessions short and I try to always finish on something fun.

Rachellebuck, our local obedience Club is Sherbrooke Dog Obedience Club. They meet every Saturday at Belgrave Lake Park, which is where I take the dogs for daily 'off lead' exercise (so they already associate the location with 'fun'). I'm not sure what other sports the club does, but I'll try different things with Ziggy and see what he likes, what he shows aptitude for, and go from there. The whole journey is great fun and I'm learning heaps (my dogs train me too!). I'm in no hurry.

Thanks again everyone for all of your suggestions. I'll be getting some of those books too - just as soon as I've got some spare cash.



Michael

Great to hear Michael, I know what it is like, when I first got Kelli I had no idea at all and wish I had a place like this to ask all the questions I had. I soon learnt the hard way the body movements and laungage is so important!!! I was just asking about your club as I went to a club the was not affilated with the VCA and it doesn't do training for trials so I found it a little hard to change over and they were not so spot on about things. But Sherbrooke Dog Obedience Club is affiliated so it will make things a heap load easier for you!!! Great to hear another great rescue story!!!! Keep us updated and I hope to see you out trialing soon, don't worry the ccd title is easy!!!!

Cheers
Rachelle

To help with Ziggy's stand, walk him over an object and when it is under him ask him to stand, he will not sit because there is something under him, after a few times, like ten,useing your bridging "yesss' everytime, then ask him to do it without the obstruction, if he does it, use your bridging word yesssss if not don't say anything and return to using the obstruction.
koolie learn faster if they see the point for having to do what you ask.

Drop is the same thing, sit on the floor, Ziggy will naturaly want to lay down beside you, ask him to drop or down and touch the floor gently, if he lies down 'Yesss' if he doesn't just wait, he will, but only ever ask him once.

He has already demonstrated he fully understands the treat game and has turned the tables, so teach him by giving him a reason to do what you ask.

Your doing a terrific job and I know how confusing I can make things.

Michael, my 1st Koolie was a rescue of sorts. The previous owners lived in Preston and Lissa was herding the kids, the other dogs and she was a great escape artist. She had obviously been mistreated in her 1st home. When we first met her the kids were riding bikes, she went to herd them and got kicked, and the father held up his arm and leaned forward as if to hit her with something. Hence Lissa came home with me to live. I didn't really have a problem with most of the obedience training except for the "Stand", because she had obviously been hit or threatened to be hit she cowered if you leaned forward to give a hand signal. So had to really think about the stand. She liked to be stroked so started when I was sitting down and stroked the full length of her back, talked gently to her and told her stand. Once she accepted that all the time and was more confident, then I moved on to standing beside her, she was still very wary, but if I gave her a verbal command then she would stand, but with head down (looked like I had been beating her). I learnt to stand, tilting to the side so that I could stroke the full length of her back including her head, this way she learnt to accept me standing beside her and she had her head up most of the time. But no matter what I did if I leaned even just a little forward she would cower again. I actually learnt that my body language had to change to make her comfortable. I tend to walk leaning forward, so just for her I had to make sure I stood up very straight but without being stiff and regimental. Was very hard, but I did and she gained her CD and I pass to her CDX. She also competed very well in Agility and gained her AD and her ET (Endurance) titles. She was a lovely dog and my first working dog (had Dobe's, Schnauzer's & a cross breed) now we have Koolie's. Bryce has been trained from 8 weeks using Positive reinforcement training. Only use food if I am training something new. He loves to work for me and wags his tail all the time and watches me very closely as the first thing I really concentrated on was for him to watch me. I son;t train him very often and haven't been to a trial for a couple of years, but the little training I do (like tonight for about 5 mins) find that he hasn't forgotten anything. Just for interest Michael don't be too eager if you are using food to reward to get rid of it too soon. You need to up the criteria of what you are wanting him to do, say for instance sit stay: Stand right in front of him after you have moved to the front of him.reward - return, continue to do this until your dog is quite stable. Then start increasing the time at the front of dog reward after a count of say 10 (always return back the way you came - not around the back of dog). Do same again this time count to say 15 reward return. Next time come back to count of 5, next time 20,slowly increase to 60 secs, but alwaysmixing it up. You really need to mix up the time that you are in front of him so that he is not sure of when you are going to return. Always reward for the sit stay not the return at this stage. When he is confidently doing a sit stay for a long period and consistantly 10 out of 10 times. If he starts to have a problem go back a step or two to build his confidence. You are always upping the criteria. Then really go for it The criteria is now sit stay until I return. Back to right in front and short times reward after the return only. when this is working 9 out of 10 times (or even 10 out of 10). Start to increase the distance, but keep the time away short for a while ie tell dog to sit (or have him in a sitting position) tell him to stay using hand signal as well as verbal, walk away turn around walk straight back to the front of him, then move to his side the way you came. You do this for a while till he is consistent. Then build up the criteria again. sit stay return around back of dog. Same steps as before. Sounds complicated and long winded, but it is proofing the dog as well as training the dog and it is better than rushing and not having a consistant dog. when this all comes together and he is sitting where you left him on a stay for a few minutes (never do the exact time required in a trial situation). You can start treating him for every 2nd sit stay, then every 4th, every 1st, every 6th, etc. But remember never over do it in 1 training session and make sure the dog ends on a win, then go play with him.

jtkoolie.

Hi Guys
Thought I had to hav a little brag about my little 16 week old puppy Gabbi. We have been dabling in clicker training. Brilliant thing that clicker. Have been mainly focusing on watching me and heeling. We can do automatic sits and we drop sometimes getting up but most times staying down and we are learning the stand (that's fun when you have taught them to sit first) and right about turns. Short recalls and 30 sec sit stays. We have been at puppy kindergarden school and have just finished our 8 week stint last night and we got invited to go to their last training session for the year. Well we got there and my little baby was put in grade 2. She actually put the other grade 2 dogs to shame. The amount of work that I did with her she had done brilliantly. She stayed focused on me knowing that a click was coming and that the yummy food was coming. I was so proud of her on focusing and doing the work that we had done as alot of it was done at home with no distraction. The only thing we did fail and that was our sit exam she gets very excited when someone comes over for a pat LOL. I didnt do the whole class though only bits and pieces and plenty of play as the instructor knows me well and lets me do things my way
cheers
Danni

Danni, they do know the clicker don't they. Bryce gets upset and wants to join me when I use the clicker with Amber. Amber isn't too keen on the clicker tho, so mainly just use food and praise. My two are just so eager to learn, so different from the dogs I used to train with the "other" method. Lissa my 1st Koolie loved the clicker when I introduced it to her and Bear my X breed liked it once he understood how it worked. Had trouble with him touching a target stick, could get him to do it by luring, but not by thinking for himself. I waited him out one day. When he couldn't figure out what I wanted he went back into his kennel, then "The light bulb turned on" he realised what I wanted and came racing back to me and touched the target stick, after that he new what it was all about. Bear was about 5 when I introduced the clicker into my household anf Lissa would have been 2 or 3. then I had the problem that when either of them heard the clicker when I was training the other one they some how managed to get out of their run to get to me to work.

The clicker is magical.

jtkoolie

Even an i-click or whistle? (Assuming that it's the sharp sound she doesn't like.)

That's impressive.

About the distraction thing, learning at home with none, then wondering whether the learning will hold elsewhere, I have an article from Karen Pryors site by Kay Laurence (God, I love her!) about how 'good' learning in a single, bland environment will generalise without proofing, and it's all about how well the dog knows it in the original place, rather than whether they have done it lots of places. Very contrary to what most trainers think, but Kay Laurence is training Gordons, pretty distractible from my experience. Of course, she's one of the great trainers (which I get the impression you might be, but I'm certainly not <g>).

Hi Kooliesmum
Dont know about being a brilliant trainer though. Just learnt through having one very stubborn Jack Russell Terrier. He taught me heaps having brilliant dogs to start off does help. Watching the good trainer reading books and seeing videos (that actually helps alot for me as I am very visual). The clicker though is brilliant and it does also help when you have gone through all the classes in obedience ie cd cdx and ud and you know what you expect the dogs to do so my girls arent allowed to sit crooked or anything like that and I just get them into the correct position or luring them into position. my girls also get a little container with fish in it. You work you get you dont you dont get and my girls know that. I just found it easier to teach at home move to park and than at training school. People at dog school cant work out how I train my dogs as they are already trained by the time I get there LOL
Yep JTKoolie clickers are magical. Found out when Xena went through a lack of confidence didnt matter if I tried to use my voice she still thought she was in trouble dug out the clicker and bobs your uncle she knew I was happy and was back to working again
cheers
Danni

I don't know much about clicker training but it sounds interesting.

Tjukurpa, I tried your suggestion with the drop (sitting on the floor) and it's starting to work! I've also turned the tables back on Ziggy by changing how I reward him. I was giving rewards from the left leg pocket of my 'dog walking trousers' but I've changed to a 'bum bag' worn around my middle. That way I can return my hands to waist height and he doesn't know for sure if he'll get a reward or not for each action. It is slowly working - he's figured something is different and is still trying to get around it though. But I give each command and wait. He's still slow on dropping but he usually does it now.

There's a few things he's sort of taught himself too. He took to heeling pretty readily (though he's not consistent and can be distracted) and now sits without a signal as soon as we stop walking.

I reckon the training is going well, I'm learning a lot (LOL).

Michael

now that you have the sit working really well it's time to teach the stand. it's easy to teach all you do is pass your left hand in front of his nose and around to his flank and slip your fingers inside his flank there is a pressure point under there that stops them from sitting. as your hand pass's his nose add the command of stand and remember to stop with your right foot. i hope you can follow this if not TJ mite be able to explain it better for you. good luck and enjoy

Kooliemum,

I've never used an I click, but I assume it is quieter than a normal clicker (although I can tell the difference between all my clickers). Whistle I've never thought of trying. I do have a very samll keyring with a frog clicker on it and it is very quiet, thought it would be good for her, but just either not interested or doesn't like the sound not sure which. I actually think she just likes to be praised and after she does something I just use my voice and pat her as she doesn't seem to like any of the treats I give her either. Not overly worried as I can adapt my training to whatever works with her.

jtkoolie

Yes, the i-click is quieter.

When Wal first heard a clicker (a box clicker) he took off scared, so I muffled it for a while and then he was fine, but you do hear from time to time of dogs that don't get used to the sound. A while ago I did a class than was mostly inside and someone was using one of those Triple Crown Clickers. It was so loud, I actually asked her not to use it because it was really worrying Wal.

I love my dog whistle, the only problem with it is that you can't really speak while it's in your mouth (of course). I don't verbally cue as much with my horse, so I use it mostly for her rather than Wal. I think I remember Bob Bailey saying on one of his dvds that the timing of the bridge was better with a clicker than a whistle, but I found it much easier to time the whistle right - I thought maybe the neural connection was quicker to my mouth than my hands? Maybe he meant because the click is a set length (more or less) but the whistle isn't.

Maybe I should buy an I click! What does the I Clcker look like? I have noticed that they are selling clicker's in KMart, they are different to the original box clicker, might just check there's out see how loud or soft they are.

jtkoolie

So, so true....and what worked with both of my ACDs was different again On the matter of books I was introduced to the wonders of Diane Bauman years ago and although her stuff is based on the US obedience ring...many of her ideas for proofing and leaving little for your dog to misunderstand or misread is FANTASTIC. I have found that Lawson is just happy to do anything with me ( or the kids) and will try his paw at anything. Trick of the week now is he puts his own toys away into a basket!!! Just wish it'd work with the kids

Sorry, I missed this when you put it up.



It's another Karen Pryor creation. I've had a look and can't find the sound on there, but it's much quieter than a box clicker. I have hardly used a box clicker since getting an i-click. She has other clickers as well that make different, quieter sounds, one that has several different electronic sounds I think on it. It's sound is here www.clickertraining.com/node/663. I haven't got one of those, but wish I did.



Bit embarrassing to quote myself, but remembered what seems to me the main idea of this article - that it's not about proofing but rather about whether the dog is stressed in the environment that makes the difference between good performance or not. That in general proofing is used as desensitization/counter-conditioning but it can be seperate. The article is at www.clickertraining.com/node/71