Hi all,

Ziggy's going great guns and can now sit, drop, stay, return when called, heel (though he sometimes lags behind and goes out wide) and go behind me to return to heel.

Now I've started trying to teach him to 'fetch' and to 'give'.

After lots of time trying 'tug-o-war' games (he's not too interested in that), balls with bells in them (interested), getting him to carry toys and stuff around in his mouth (sort of interested - when it is his idea), etc, he's just starting to get it, but he's still not overly interested.

A few days ago he fetched a few times (yay), but he drops the ball before he gets to me. Other times he runs out to the ball, sniffs it and trots back to me without it.

Also, I can't get him to bring the ball all the way back to me to 'give.'

With my Kelpie/Short haired pointer cross, Coco (now deceased), I had her from 10 weeks old and she learnt to 'fetch' and 'give' easily.

With Precious I rescued her at 12 months from the RSPCA as a dumped dog with a vague history that looked like it had included some abuse. Somewhere along the line she had learnt to fetch but not to 'give.' While she's obsessed with games and fetching, she always drops the ball when she gets 9/10ths of the way back to me. She's never been interested in learning to 'give' either. It seems all the joy for her is in the 'work' of retrieving and not in actually posessing the ball.

I think Ziggy might be picking up the same thing from her too.

Any suggestions?

Thank you.

Michael

Hi Michael,

I would skip the fetch part for now and concentrate on the 'hold' and 'give' part.

Start off with a soft comfortable object that isn't like his other toys. Something like a pair of rolled up socks, a short length of hose or rope or a rolled up piece of leather. Keep it as a retrieving toy and only use it for that.

I find it's easiest to teach this when your dog is panting - then his mouth is already open and it's easy to pop in the retrieving toy (say 'take it' or 'get it' as you do this), gently hold his mouth closed for a second (saying 'hooooold', 'good boy' - often just a hand under his chin will do), then take hold of the toy, say 'give' and then MASSIVE praise and favourite food treat after he does.

Slowly increase the time he's expected to hold the toy before giving. It should get to the stage he'll be actively reaching to take the toy from you, so you can slowly over several training sessions lower the toy till it's in your hand, on the ground, then slowly remove your hand before asking him to 'take it' or 'get it'.

Then you can start throwing it short distances and also substituting it for his normal toys (you may have to go back to basics with each different toy until he understands it's the same game with the same rules).

My Kelpie and Koolie both learnt super quickly and I just needed a few 'touch ups' to get a perfect retrieve. They know many fetch related commands now - 'pick it up', 'take it', 'spit it out', 'hold it', 'give', 'put it in the box', 'take it to him/her', 'fetch', 'go get it'...

My Cavalier on the other hand had no clue and I successfully taught him in the way I suggested above. He quickly turned into a beautiful little retriever!

I also use this method in the obedience classes I instruct with great success...Of course there are other ways to teach it, maybe someone else will post other ideas?

Good luck!

i have the same problem with spice but she just runs away with the toy so she can play with the others dogs with it or just drops t when i call her to me. so will will start teaching your way and hopefully it works

See the old true and tried methods still work.
Good one hopenfox

Remember to take is slow and enjoy the time, and Ziggy will try his hardest for you, this is not a race to see how quick he can learn but how well he remembers, so make it enjoyable and short.

He has already shown you he can do it, so now you just need to support his efforts and he will be fetching reliably in no time.

With dogs who love to fetch but drop the article or refuse to give it up, you can try offering them a substitute toy for the one in their mouth.
They see you have one and want it, so let the one in their mouth go in order to take yours, you need to be quick to catch the one from their mouth while giving the one in your hand, but it soon turns into a good game.

I don't think Ziggy will require this effort though, just do the hold and give from sitting in front of you so he associates where he must hold and wait to give up the article.

Little tip, when asking him to give, be sure to place both hands on either end of the article for release.

It insures you don't miss the give and the toy doesn't land on floor.

Happy training, you’re doing wonderful, you might like to do a demo for us when you come to the gathering to show him off, I'd love to send photos back to the other rescues of his great progress.

Thanks for the great suggestions, Hopenfox and Tjukurpa. I really appreciate it as - while I'm enthusiastic - I only have limited experience (and not a lot of confidence yet) with training and obedience.

This list is a real help and it's great to know it is helping others too. Let us know how you go with Spice, Royalla.

I'll put some thought into a retrieving toy for Ziggy and give the 'hold' and 'give' exercises a go and let you all know the results.

I've learnt so much from these posts - particularly in regard to using bridging words (I've stuck to 'yes' and 'no' and they're working well) and being aware of my own body language. I'm still learning to be consistent with this, but I hadn't considered just how much dogs pick up on the subtleties before. Ziggy is training me too!

I'm also more conscious of making the training sessions short and fun. I now make a point of finishing with something he can do well and reward and praise him heaps afterward.

Ziggy's such a lovely natured dog. He's built up a bit of a fan base among the other dog owners at the local park. It's great to have the opportunity to tell others about Koolies too as many people haven't seen one before (and I'm lucky enough to have two!!). One interesting aside is how many people have initially mistaken him for a 'she' because they think he's so 'pretty.'

Ziggy has learnt so much in such a short time that I think I might have been way too keen at first. So I've slowed up and I'm remembering to make it fun for both of us. Because he is so eager to please me, he was becoming too focused on the training. Whenever we went to the park he'd just heel by my side and wait for the reward instead of going for a run with Precious. I've been taking him to the park at times when there's lots of dogs off the lead so he can have more opportunities to just goof around and socialise.

Tjukurpa, I'm really looking forward to showing you some of the new things Ziggy can do at the next Koolie Club meeting (I'm such a proud 'dad'). But you know dogs, they have an uncanny knack of knowing when they are on show. He's just as likely to look at me and cock his head like he doesn't know what I'm saying

Thanks again everyone. Getting involved with the Koolie Club and this list is one of the best things I've done.

Cheers,


Michael

I so love your attitude, it is just so Koooolie.

If he does have a forget me moment it will be just so koolie of him as well.

It is wonderful to see him in a happy home with a loving and devoted family, best Christmas present I recieved.

Oh, we love him alright. That dog is such a smoocher it's impossible not to love him. He's already figured out who the real boss of the house is (Lynette - formerly a 'cat' person, now very much a 'Koolie' person). He curls up next to her on the couch in the evenings and puts his head in her lap like he's a cat.

Koolies might be thinkers more than lapdogs but they're certainly smart enough to act like lapdogs - or lap cats for that matter - if it suits them.

The only thing he doesn't do is say 'MEOW.'

Michael

BEWARE OF WHAT YOU WISH FOR, God forbid

Same thing happened here, I was the doggie one and Rich a cat person, our first dog was half koolie and she won him over pretty well. Then we got our first pure koolie and he was totally besotted. I guess when you think about it koolies are a bit like cats in as much as they deem to own you.

Yep totally agree. My husband was a Jack Russell person my dogs were ok,gave them pats. Doesnt have too much to do with Xena the coolie. Milo the kelpie does get the cuddle on the lounge but he is besotted with Gabby my new coolie puppy. She cant do no wrong and if he is suppose to tell her off he wont as he doesn't want to be the bad person and wants her to still love him. What a softy LOL
cheers
Danni

I just wanted to add a couple more things related to retrieving...

I have found that playing tug-of-war has really encouraged my dogs to hold onto things and bring them to me. If I let go or aren't paying attention, Fox (Kelpie) will do his best to press the other end of the tug toy into my lap or hand - he knows only I can make the tug-toy fun!

The other thing is for dogs that like to keep the ball for themselves and don't want to bring it back. These dogs think the ball will just be taken from them and then thrown away, so of course don't see the point of returning it.

I've found if you have the dog on a leash (so you can get the ball back) and play catch with the ball, he quickly learns you make the ball fun and almost always return it to him...So you throw the ball into his mouth ('catch!'), then say 'give' and take it out of the dog's mouth, then instantly throw it back into their mouth. Do this repeatedly and they'll always be happy for you to take it.

~ hopenfox ~

I got Kelli to return the ball by giving her food for the ball. She now will put it right at your foot. I tought her to put the ball on the ground so I could pick it up with a chuck it and I didn't have to touch the thing. This is REALLY bad if you want to train for dumbell retrieval in your later obedience as she will not hold her dumbell and most of the time will not even touch it. I have tried wood, plastic, even one made out of tennis ball stuff but she will now return nothing but a tennis ball, not even a stick like object(I NEVER let her play with real sticks as they can course so much damage!!) She drives me mad with her balls and I have just about broken my leg falling over the thing. So what I am saying is don't just play ball as they become obsessive about it. Good luck

At the park Ziggy has been starting to take an interest in the ball now, fetching and bringing it back until he loses interest. He's competing with Precious now and tries to get to it first. He still drops it before he gets it to me, which is fine for the moment as I don't reward him for that. I'm not pressuring him either at this stage, because at home I've begun working with him on the 'hold' and 'give.'

I've figured out how to get Precious to start returning the ball to my hand too. With Precious it is the 'work' of fetching that is the reward, so I just stop throwing the ball. I won't throw until she brings the ball to my hand. She barks at me (dog speak for C'MON!) but I'm the boss and I'm standing firm and it's beginning to work.

Ziggy is starting to take an interest in tug-O-war. Especially with socks (his idea!). It's quite funny trying to put my socks on in the morning now. But I want to find another toy for tug-o-war. Not socks or shoes. We've been stony broke this last fortnight because of Christmas, etc, but today is pay day (YAY!) so I'm thinking of getting a tug-o-war toy for Ziggy which I'll begin to use for retrieving in a one on one situation with him. I'll let you all know how he goes.

I think I've relaxed somewhat too and - surprise, surprise - that makes things a whole lot easier. You're right Tjukurpa, they just want to please us. It's nice to be reminded of that fundamental fact.

As for the 'cat' situation, it continues and I'm amazed and amused at the changes. The dogs now permanently sleep inside (Lynette's idea - with my FULL support LOL). And (SHOCK) Ziggy's even scored the occasional cuddle on the bed from Lynette.

I think Precious fully appreciates the gains Ziggy has made for both of them too. Ziggy's quite the diplomat!

Michael

I make my own tug toys with old T-shirts - just cut one inch wide strips, lie them all together, tie a not at one end, then plait and tie a not at the bottom. Easy, cheap, soft, and the dog's love them!

Hopenfox you are so clever. I am going home this afternoon to make some. They look great.

I agree that is a great idea. I have brought Pheonix some tug toys as that is his fav game but those would be heaps cheaper and a reason to get rid of all the tshirts of nicks i hate LOL

Great idea Hopenfox! I'm going to have a go at that one. I've recently become interested in plaits.

My latest attempt was to put secret plaits into Precious and Ziggy's Collars. Hope the photo attaches and looks okay.


Cheers,

Michael

Hopenfox

What a great idea for the tug toys, have heaps that I can use. Will just have to start making some as they would be so much better on the dogs mouths than the ones you buy.


Michael,

The collars look great, would love to learn how to do them. I can do the plaits on the leads at the handle and the clip end. Makes them stronger and no need to be frightened of studs pulling out if a dog tugs on a lead too much, only use studs to keep the ends tidy. Had this happen with the Dobes & Schnauzer. So I learnt to make leather leads myself.

Do you use commercially available collars or do you make them from scratch?



jtkoolie

Actually it's not hard to do at all, jtkoolie. I bought a book recently called 'Bush Leatherwork' by Ron Edwards and followed the steps and voila!.

These were the first two collars I attempted and they were just commercial collars I already had. I saw a fantastic looking plaited dog collar in an RM Williams store last year for $130.00! and I thought, geez, I'm not paying that for a dog collar. I could do that myself!

Next time I'll have a go at making the collars from scratch (maybe I can even sell them for $100 each to rich yuppies at the craft markets. Or better still, maybe I could get a job at RM Williams ROTFLMAO!).

Ron Edwards is a Far North Queenslander and he has a whole series of books on bushcraft, leatherwork and the fine old Aussie tradition of 'making do' (now all but forgotten in these high consumer, spend, spend, spend, credit card, times we now live in). Quite a few local libraries have these books incidentally, but I wanted my own copy of the leatherwork one.

The Leatherwork book is fantastic - loaded with old 'bushy' leatherwork, lacing, plaits, and knots for belts, pouches, stockwhips, saddle repairs, hat bands, watch bands, dog collars, even plaited dog leads.

Once I've got my confidence up I want to have a go at a couple of plaited dog leads, and maybe even a plaited kangaroo lace stockman's belt for myself.

The diagrams for the secret plait dog collar are too detailed to post here, and I'd probably be breaching copyright. But if you want I could copy the pages and mail them to you.

hopenfox's tug-o-war toys will be the next thing I try to make. Great practice for the dog leads.


Oops, I think I'm rattling on and going "off topic" again - I can't help myself. It's just so great to chat about this stuff to like minded folks.


I brought a rope loop tug-o-war toy with a tennis ball at each end the other day - before I saw hopenfox's post (drats!). Ziggy got the idea straight away. It took Precious and him about 20 minutes to chew the tennis balls off the ends LOL.

Now to get Ziggy to 'hold' and 'give.'



Michael