Hi everyone, I posted this on Dogz On Line with not much help at all. Thanks to Dannimilo for her help though!!!
Can anyone here give me any other ideas please. I forgot to mention I take her herding at Elmore every second weekend too.

Hi Everyone,
I am after a bit of info here. I have an almost 3 year old BCxKoolie that is very highly strung. I was after some information as to what people would recommened to calm her down a bit. She is a great dog but just can not sit still for 2 seconds to concertrate on anything.

A bit of background:
Libby has been going to obedience since she was 16 weeks. I have had her since she was a puppy
She has had a number of sessions with a behaviourist (which were great help)
I have tried using differant foods to see if that worked
I have had her on bach flower remedies (a heap of differant conbinations)
I have tried rescue remedy
I have tried vitamin b
It is most likely genetics that makes her this way. (as per her bahaviourist)
I have found the session with the behaviourist have helped a great deal but she is just so hypo all the time (I always say she goes off like a frog in a sock!!!

Her behaviourist said maybe a DAP would help her, only I am worried about my other 2 dogs as if they were made any calmer they wouldn't move at all.

Could anyone please give me something else they think may help clam her down a bit. I know she is a really smart dog but she does poorly in obedience as she can not sit still for more than 2 seconds.

Thanks everyone for your help!!!!

Sounds like you have tried everything and then some.

Because I work full time my dogs have large dog runs and are locked up during the day. I get up early in the morning and let them have a big run and they go wild. They are always happy to go back into their yards and I have toys, etc to keep them busy during the day but in the evenings they are crying to get out and are extremely active. I have found that short but regular training sessions of about 5-6min with no distractions such as other dogs demanding your attention work and I spoil them with lots of verbal praise and treats for a job well done. The sitting and staying command gets used often to reinforce this and I do this in between other sessions and when we are just playing in the paddock, but sometimes they just don't want to go along with any of this and just ignore me.

Libby is one lucky pup to have you as her mum.

Libby gets a good run every day and we play ball a fair bit too. I just feel if she calmed down a bit it might make it all a bit easier for her to concerntrate on things. Don't get me wrong she is improving I am just trying to make life easier for her.

Just look at my little girl she is just so cute I would do anything to help her out

No wonder you love her so much, she is so adorable. Love the expression on her face.

just skimmed this....

I have previously used BEHAVE paste for horses & dogs with some success in highly strung huskies (usually young boys around females in heat)...B group vitamins & chamomile we use in horses with success....

It's an long-term thing getting an over-aroused dog to calm down, I think, not something for which there is a magic bullet. Wal is a bit the same, maybe not so much. The kind of dog ppl meet for the first time and think is a year or so old because he's so excited and bouncy (when he's actually 10).

I think the best agility writers are most likely to provide you with answers, as in that sport they want their dogs to be highly energised yet not reactive, so they often have dogs that in less skilled hands would be really OTT but teach them self-control. I haven't used it yet, but Susan Garrett's Crate Games teaches self-restraint quite brilliantly. Her book Shaping Success about one of her Borders who was seriously full on and from whom she learned a huge amount is really interesting, quite inspiring. I've got Control Unleashed sitting on my desk to be read, too, have heard good things about it, although some ppl find it hard to read, I hear.

One of my ideas is that you should try to use reinforcers that create an emotional state compatible with the behaviour/mood you're after. Although that's quite different from Susan Garrett's approach and prob most ppl in agility, who are more into teaching 'you only get the exciting thing by being calm'. For me that seems hard, although watching Crate Games shows me how to do it kindly. As most ppl do it, it just seems mean and punitive, to me.

About stays, have you heard of the 300 pecks concept? That might help - good for any long duration behaviour I believe.

About DAP, it shouldn't harm/subdue any further your already calm dogs.

I never suggest popping pills and prefer to find a more natural way to resolve issues with my animals health and wellbeing.

Having said that, when I was faced with a radical personality change in one of my elderly Koolie and after two years of struggling to find relief, both though medication and holistic, I was at my wits ends as nothing was working, or some would give temporary improvement but it wouldn't last long.

At her worst, I could not leave her at home alone, or I would return to discover everything from furniture, curtains, clothes etc were shredded, window screen torn from their fittings and covering them all and the walls her faeces, which she had painted after depositing it in as many places she could drop it.

We came to the time when this was not good for her or us and the green needle was considered.

Then some one suggested one small pill of Fenergan, once a day or just before going out, and just like that it was over.
Twelve months later, still all quiet and we don't even use the pills now, but we have them on hand if if ever comes back.

Now I’m not recommending you rush out and grab a packet of Fenergen, though you are more than welcome to give it a try, it never made her dopy, it just calmed her down so her brain could think.

The reason for my writing is to give you hope, though you have tried so hard , don't give up hope there is always a cure just keep looking.

And posting here is one dam good place to start.

It is funny you mentioned Fenergan. I was told to give it a try by one of my friends yesterday so I went and got a box of them to give it a try. I gave her one this morning with breakfast and will see how we go. I also still have her on the vitamin b tablets.
I had seen the behave paste online and was thinking that may be my next step.
I have been seeing a behaviourist that recommened a sort of ignore the bad and reward the good for Libby as she has dog to dog agression and me pulling on her correction chain all the time just makes her worse to the point where she will redirect her agression to me. I have tried every type of collar too with her and a correction chain seems to be the best so far so as least we are getting somewhere.
I have been trying all the natural medicines first to see if one of them would work but so far nothing has really helped.
I will give the vitamin b and fenergan a couple of weeks and we will see how we go with that.
I will also as always just keep on training her.
Thanks for the suggestions of book, i will try to get my hands on some of them!!!

Thanks all for your help. I really needed it. After having Kelli, who is just so calm it is hard to get her started to having Libby it is a shock to the system. I also have to keep reminding myself what dog I am training as they are all so differant, like humans I guess

Maybe other ppl don't have this problem but when I had two dogs I spent much more time training the easier to train one (and that wasn't my Koolie). Bit naughty and silly, when he needed much more work than she did.

i know what you mean, I would rather train Pheonix than Libby in all truth. Kelli is just a dream after training Libby and I relise how luck I was to have her first. I know it is bad to say but I know what you mean cos I do it too

I guess we're responding to reinforcement too. Lots of trainers do admit to training more the easier behaviours or ones they like, rather than useful ones they really need. That reminds me, I hate hate hate teaching stays. They are so boring. Perhaps that's why my dogs haven't had great stays lol.

Well I encounter this issue alot in my field, dog trainer, my advice is always the same: EXERCISE. A run in the back yard or a few minutes of ball play is not enough, with working breeds we need to provide them with over 3 hrs of mental and physical stimulus a day. A good run in the forest, a good swimm in the river, hiking a mountain, all off leash in order to get the heart and the muscles working, good cardio is what we look for, for a total of 3 hrs a day. It is unreasonable for us to ask our dogs to work for us if we are not providing them with their basic need, running. In the wild wolfs spend their day running in order to hunt their food, modern day dogs need that same kind of outlet in order to be happy and well balanced. The amount of exercise a dog needs varies with each dog, some need more, some need less, sounds like you have one that needs LOTS of exercise, i would know i have 5, lol. I also have 130 acres available to me for their exercise as well. Only after this exercise programe is inforced can we ask them to focus for us, a well exercised body means a open and responsif mind. Try my 5 day experience, for 5 days go out of your way to provide your dog with at least 3 hours of "real" exercise a day (real= off leash running) then try to do short sessions with your dog after the exercise, increasing the length of the training session gradualy. Let me know if it helps :)

I agree exercise is usually the key to a lot of problems! Have you thought of a doggie back pack for her with a couple of bottles of water in it? She would need to use more energy to carry the water! Does she look to you for leadership ie when on the leash, does she take her cues from you - have you tried doing 180° quick turns when you see another dog?

Libby gets a heap of exercise, the more I give her the fitter she is and the more she wants. She is not really a running dog and will always stay close to me when off lead. She will listern to me and "watches" me. Believe me we avoid other dogs like anything. She just seem to have clamed down now though!!!
thanks all for your help

Glad to hear she suddenly calmed down, excessif energie can be one of the hardest thing to control and harness. Enjoy your exercise together, it is so much fun to watch them do what they love the most, run and play. How come you avoid other dogs? Is Libby not social with other dogs or are the dogs in your neighbourhood the non friendly ones? I have some tips on socialisation as well if you would like them, because play date with another dog outside of the family is great fun and good exercise as well.

Libby has dog to dog agression, has since forever. We have had a behaviourist look at her a number of times and given me some tips on how to stop her from going off the deep end.

We have 8 dogs in our family so she has a large pack

But I also go on play date with my friend how mas 2 GSD and a Kelpie cross. Libby is ok with them now it just takes her time and she is scared of new dogs.

have been seeing a behaviourist that recommend a sort of ignore the bad and reward the good for Libby as she has dog to dog aggression and me pulling on her correction chain all the time just makes her worse to the point where she will redirect her aggression to me. I have tried every type of collar too with her and a correction chain seems to be the best so far so as least we are getting somewhere.

my BC was like your Libby but with rescue remedy which did not work and a lot of training which did work teach your girl leave it. now leave it go's to many things like food toy's the postie and other dogs. enough now is to stop play or means stop licking me lol. drop is a good way to help get rid of aggression because in the drop position your dog is in a submitting pose. i made a point of walking pass the dog that Kearby hated and every time he even thought about looking at that dog i would growl at him and say leave it when he listened to me he got a reward. it's to late if your dog has already looked you have to get in first every time which is very hard to do at times no reward for looking. at home in the house i will tie the dog to the coffee table and he was put on a drop stay now i have done this with kearby Quin and Summa, kearby would hear a sound out side and take off full pelt, Quin has an automatic leg that lifts as he go's past thing and summa was a pacer. what did each dog learn from this kearby did not move from the coffee table even when he was not tied to it until i said OK, Quin well with him we are still working on it and for the time being he is barred from the house, Summa comes in a drops at the coffee table and stays there with spice and Ellie it does not matter which room i go into i know they are at the coffee table or they will get up and go outside to toilet but they have to check the cats food bowl on the way out the little buggers lol

LOL

Thanks everyone for your suggestions I will give anything a try!!

I agree with leecos about working dogs loving to exercise and often behaving better when their exercise is increased.

But I think our working dogs have a recent selection history to be able to live with much more confinement than most of our dogs have to live with. On stations from my observation (limited I'll admit) most of the dogs are tethered most of the time. I suspect that the assumption of suburdan owners of such dogs that their dogs, if still living on the farm, would have the run of the whole property all day encourages them to encourage their dogs to be revved up too much of the time and exercised in ways that are physically and emotionally risky and get them so fit you can never tire them out. So the type of steady exercise you're talking about leecos would be better than crazy ball-chasing IMHO.