I thought I would post a subject which is of some interest at the moment on the Internet but seems to be creating some confusion.

As most know the Koolie Club of Australia has undertaken a breed specifity test.

The feedback I need is this:
What do you believe a breed specifity test is.

What does it entail

And for the breed which undertakes this test what would you expect from the results.

And finaly what would you expect to do with the results once known

I hope that's all clear, look forward to hearing what you have to say.

i believe the test is
1. to identify the koolie genes
2. to work out what other breeds are in the koolies DNA make up
3. and how pure are some of our koolies are

I agree with Royalla but maybe also structure of the breed may come into it too.

tj i know that you will be testing a lot of dogs but are the real old cockies you know the ones that have been breeding koolies for centuries in the back of beyond, are they submitting any DNA from their really old dogs you know the ones that are on their last legs the 14 plus year olds that have come from their old lines so to speak god i hope you can make sense out of that but i know what i am talking about i just hope you do then that means i am not totally mad yet lol

Hi royalla
Over the last few years that we have been working on this we have travelled a lot of miles collecting DNA, we had a couple of trips up through NSW meeting people and collecting DNA from people who had bred their dogs for generations, also around Western Victoria where some of the oldest and purest lines are, these people had grandfathers that had koolies and the lines have been continued. We also collected from people all over who contacted us and we sent them swabs to have their dogs collected and returned to us. Usually when they run the breed specifity test (at least when they started) they used 20 dogs of the same breed, whereas we have submitted over 40 of the oldest most verifiable lines we could find including Frank Kelms, McGinneskins, Walshs, Nelsons, Barbers who have all been working their dogs for generations as well as breeding. On the trip up to NSW we even pulled over a guy in a ute towing a farm implement because he had koolies in the back and he had a 14 year old who came from old Mrs so and so over on the coast who had bred koolies for 50 years. So yes they are submitting them but they are also the reference we are working to.

that sounds really cool god i would love to be there when you find out who's dogs are related to who and if any are related to those old lines and did not know it.

It has been exciting and frustrating at the same time. When we got our first results it was before the specifity test was developed and we were going to do it the hard way, counting repititions and finding paterns. To keep the cost down we were going to do as much of it as possible with their guidance until the mundane stuff was done. But it was facinating, firstly to see just how common some of the genes were, two genes they used had only 4 different numbers over the whole population, other positions had a dozen or more different possibilities. Then they became aware of the breed specifity test and said put it all down this will do it all and then some, plus they have developed new computer programs that will do all this analysis for us. As you can imagine the legalities in getting the licence for these tests is very involved but we are hoping to get back to visit the lab in the next couple of weeks for an update and hopefully some good news that it is all moving forward.
You'll all hear us whoop when we have the results for sure!!

I just missed meeting Tjurkurpa and Silhouette on the NSW trip at Singleton Showground..was all ready to give up my swab that day, but not meant to be. I'm still interested in doing so, so what is the proceedure? How do I go about it?

As for what I expect, well maybe to see who my dogs are related to. As for Koolies purity, as I understand it there isn't such a thing (I may be wrong). Is it not the case that Koolies are made up of a few old breeds, and crossed out at times to improve working lines. Is there any such thing as a purity test for any dog? Isn't it really the merle gene and other distinguishing features that would be identifiable rather that a "Koolie" gene?

Well I was hoping that this subject would get more airplay, but no matter.

Interest is interest.

Shaunagh, sorry we missed out on catching up with you, that's the problem with schedules on the road, time is not you own.

If you still wish to submit a swab you can either go through your own vet, and send it to the registrar, or you can submit it at gatherings we get to, like the Binalong workshop or Sydney expo.
I'll be coming though in April heading up to Qld for their workshop.
I'll be staying a night or two in the blue mountains, if that helps.

If you get it done through your vets be sure to tell him not to put the sample in any gel, just put it back in the sheath and send it, along with their micro-chip registration numbers and your membership number for verification.
So we get the right results back to the right person.

Breed specifity tests have already been carried out on a large number of breeds, the Australian Shepherd, Kelpie and the ACD to name three that are of an interest to us.
What we hope to discover is as these breeds are already identified it will tell us what bloodlines may carry these influences, not all breeders have felt the need to out cross.
With that information there may be a possibility to compare these influence lines to lines without and record any differences if there are any.

Because we have been fortunate to gather a cross section of very old and established bloodlines we will be also be able to compare their results to the more current bloodlines, to see if at all the modern Koolie’s differ and how.
All information will help us understand the Koolie as a working breed better and in using that information insure the future of the Koolie.

As for the purity, define purity and the benefits of it, has purity helped any of the pure breeds in the world.

Aren't we talking about all the genetic diseases that every pure breed is suffering from, dying from, where has purity gotten them

Every recorded pure breed has been created through the manipulation of man except the wolf, and African wild dogs, even the dingo is a breed with influences.
The Koolie is no different, if may not be as long established as many of your better known breeds, but I believe the genetic cleanness of the Koolie breed will be more sort after than its purity.

Remember that just because these breeds may be in the koolie until the koolie is dated, we don't know if that means that these bloodlines influence the Koolie or is prooves the Koolie influences them.

And we may discover more when we compare our data base against theirs.

It's all a proccess, will the breed specifity test provide answers or create more questions.

I don't feel we will have the complete picture until we include DNA from the Tiger and other breeds which may or may not have influenced the Koolie.

But it is a beginning and we will only gain a better understanding of the breed by doing this, so I hope you will decide to submit your Koolies DNA, all the more the clearer the feedback.

Hi Shaunagh
I thought it was you we spoke to, sorry we didn't catch up but I wonder if we weren't on opposite sides of the grounds because we were there for a while and of course no phone signal didn't help. You are welcome to submit you DNA I can send you the form to fill in and have your vet sign. If you want your dogs to be recognized under the Kool Pedigree Assurance Program he will need to be microchipped or tattooed and have that verified by the vet, as well as registered with the club. If results are just for your own use (you don't want to breed in future and use them to verify offspring) they don't have to be chipped or registered but the company will not standby your results as there is no proof they are from the said dog.


Most definately yes, there has been something like 60 breeds tested to date so that they can tell what portion of that breed is in each dog tested. The scientists are most adamant it will be achieved and if you think about how long the German Shepherd has been a breed, koolies shouldn't have any trouble.
No the merle gene is a seperate gene and has already been found,I think the fact that they have found so many genes for diseases to date makes a breed gene even more believable.
The test we are told will idetify family groups but also what percentage of other breeds are present in a dog. This is already being used in dangerous dog identification.

This is a fascinating subject, as is the absorbing mystery of the Koolie, ha ha. I have wondered about the genetic influence of the German Tigers myself, and the benefit of trying to find their DNA in the modern Koolie. I think I read somewhere that they are in a similar boat as koolies in that they are not registered as a breed in Germany, but are still there working away in places. God knows what their history is. Tjukurpa makes a good point, that outcrossing can go both ways, and I would add, in a small genetic pool, come full circle potentially. Also of course selective breeding has to be a factor. Having said that, I read an interesting study on the inheritance of human I.Q. and other features such as tallness. Apparently it isn't as simple as breeding say two tall brainy people together as their offspring will always fall into variations on a bell curve, and will not vary in that range over time and generations, and may even correct down over generations. If we could selectively breed so easily we would already be a race of giant geniuses (big and smart people tend to have better survival ability) and we all know we are not giant geniuses. I'm no breeder of dogs though. As I said, I would like to know basically who my dogs are related to, and from what area etc, ie what their particular story is. I find this more interesting than purity. As for finding the pure Koolie gene, I suppose that is only of benefit for the future generations. The gene wont necessarily say anything more about the dog that it's papers saying it has been generation bred back to whenever, and breeders already do that, and that is easily verifiable.Keeping the future dogs disease free is important. I need to read more on genetics. I'ts very interesting, but complex. The one thing to avoid in finding a pure koolie gene, would be turning the breed into show dog clone, and people will want to do it. It is the variation in koolies that I love so much. Koolies are the only breed I know where one dog in a litter can be so glamourous in a fashion sense, and yet it's full sibling turn out to be the muttiest looking thing by anyones standards, and yet still have the that koolie charm!

This is why scientist say you need at least 200 results of each mating before you see all the possible results of it. A bell curve also shows the variance of a mating, a wide flat curve means the results are very diverse but a tall narrow one means more consistancy within the group.

Don't think that by finding the koolie gene it means that only those of the purest blood will be welcome. The history of the breed is facinating but the priority is the here and now and the future, we can only go forward but we are extremely aware of what breeding from a small gene poole has done for "pure breeds". The first reply we had from the lab after submitting our first 30 or so samples was that we had very good diversity, we plan to hang on to that. We know that many good working koolies have a dollop of another breed in them, it was inevitable with the isolation of some owners, but how far back and how much is left is a guess until now. The advantage of this is we will have a clear understanding of what we are working with and can make breeding decisions with full knowledge. It is not to discard dogs or breeders. My intention is to recommend to the committee we adopt a teared register relevant to the percentage result, if you choose to breed you may choose to use a dog with a higher pecentage as part of your selection process. But the emphasis will still be on good working dogs. We are only 8 years down a very very long path and we all still have the right to travel it but by knowing what our assets are we can make the best decisions possible. What having the test will do is bring into the open what is available to us and give purchasers and breeders a better choice as to which way they want to head. We have always had an all welcome policy (we even have a poodle come to meetings) and include a section in our register for cross bred dogs, that won't change.

I will be at the herding clinic in April, so I will get Ceejay swabbed. This is all fascinating stuff. I have always wandered what else is in a Koolie whether there is a mixture of DNA breeds. Or whether there isn't but it comes from an original dog from overseas. This is great stuff. All very exciting, as long as we don't lose their variety of looks, that is what I like about the Koolies and we stick to mixing them up (if you know what I mean) and go with their temperments and how they behave.

I do believe that people ignore temperments when breeding which is basically stupid as this does come through with the pups.

Good way to think Ceejay, if we keep that all in mind and try very hard not to get too focused on just one trait, be it looks, workr conforamtion, we should do ok and the koolie will be around for your kids kids.

In a sense it is a blessing for the breed that it is only coming to recognition now. Had it been recognised 40 years ago, can you imagine what todays Koolie would be like, given fashion whims. It may have even been that the breed would have been split like kelpies. With the technology coming around now, and strong policies, the koolie may have a chance to remain as we know it, "a real good dog".

My head is spinning. All this and more for our Koolies. Sil, TJ and everyone involved you are to be commended but like you said it is only the start.

I don't think now that we will lose the individuality of the Koolie as we are all aware that is what makes them so special.

As long as people continue to discuss the Koolie as we do here, I think they'll remain in good shape.

I agree, the reason I chose Koolies was they were bred for temperment and their working ethic. I was looking at Border collies but I kept coming across snappy and snarling ones every know and again. And then I thought about Kelpies but at that stage when I was looking kept coming across those show bred type and I don't like them.

I like the lean, strong type of dog with high energy (I know asking for trouble).

I also am quite fond of the fact that no two koolies are alike a bit like us humans. So each one is a unique dog but all with the same traits.

Yep, I have two of them. I also have a kelpie and a border collie. I just love the coolies cause they are unique they are completely different to other breeds. They are smart(too smart for there own good)They pick up there training much better than the others (that includes my german shepherdxdobermann, Jack Russell Terrier, Kelpie and Border Collie) and best of all there is never a coolie that looks the same like the borders that there is hundreds at agility. We have quite a few coolie now competing and they dont look like each other.
Like someone said once you got a coolie you cant stop at one. I think they could be right considering this is the first time that I have got the same breed twice. They are awesome dogs.
cheers
Danni

Interesting comment dannimilo, I have only had close ties with koolies and a koolie X bc that turns out had a lot of koolie traits. It is very interesting to hear th difference people that own them have noticed. We often get questions from people overseas and it is difficult to get the message through because most have knowledge of kelpies bc and acd. After explaining to one person the other day that they were definately different to all of these she said as long as they were different to the sporting breeds because she didn't like them at all...wouldn't have a clue there but I assume so.

hi silhouette
what is the up date on the test is it any closer to being ready for us to bombard it yet with our dogs DNA yet

Hi Royalla

Latest update is, hopefully just a few months away. The science is developing at the same time and things are changing constantly which means it slows us down but at the end of it the science will be more accurate and probably more revealing.

Any updates on these tests yet??

Update is more dogs have been classified, a few more to do then its the Koolies turn, but we need to collect a few more samples from bloodlines we believe influenced the Koolies creation, so it looks like July may be the hot month and we have a hop it to have all our other influences in so they can remove them from the equation, what's left and not identifed will be Koolie.

Roughly explained