Here's a question for the experts. I have read that Koolies "breed true". Firstly, what does it mean to breed true, and second, do folk think that Koolies breed true?



Thanks, Shaunagh.

Yes good questions for the experts and i to would like to read the answers as well. do you think that they mean bred true as in how koolies work there stock or for the merling i know it's not looks or body type as there are so many that are different looking koolies out there

Man, I'm no expert I just keep the records. Breeding true to my understanding is that resultant puppies are all within accepted parameters of the breed. You have read here all the people saying "my dog does this" and half a dozen others saying "so does mine!!!!" And we all know that those things can be pretty unique in the dog world, so I think they definately breed true in many aspects as far as temperament and personality, working style and demeanour. We have also had the discussion on structure and how similiar they are so much so that the "expert" from the ANKC was blown away after seeing 20 or so dogs at once. We also know that if crossed with another breed that those traits are pretty dominating just ask Rachellebuck. Yes you get variety in size, coat length and ear set in a litter but across the breed they are fairly constant in style.

I don't believe anyone is a expert, we are all still learning.
Thank god!, life would be boreing if you knew everything.

In the dogs books true to type refers to the pups looking and acting pretty much like the parents.

When you put two Koolie’s together you usually get pups that resemble the parents.
You don't get pugs from Koolie’s

Generaly Koolie breeders make a point of not referring to their lines as pure.
We call our pups, generation bred Koolie’s so for five generations we have bred Koolie to Koolie.

These photos hopefully demonstrate that from the believed original parent bloodlines in the early 1800s to present day there is little divergence, except for a darkening in the colour due to the introduction of solid coloured and cryptic Koolie’s, we now use in our breeding program.

Now it is just as easy to produce German Tiger photos, another believed parent bloodline and show the same continuity to present day.

Dates are not accurate

Here's an 1800s photo of an original Collie type that is believed to be a foundation bloodline of the Koolie
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Here is a Koolie type from the early 1900s
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Here is my foundation bitch from 2000
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Her daughter 2002
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Her granddaughter from 2004
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Her great granddaughter 2006
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Her great great granddaughter 2007
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It is my understanding that this is called breeding true to type, all work sheep, all are between 43cm and 45cm, all have a good wide chest, strong feet and brains to do a full days work.

Type doesn't mean they all fit the square peg.
It means that for whatever job they were selected for they adapted to do it, and this included, height, body shape, leg structure, chest capacity, feet everything the Koolie uses for its given task will be effected over time.

That is why the Koolie breed is so diverse because it meets so many needs, those who work cattle in the mountains will be different to those who work in the flat country.

And yet no matter where you travel or what type of Koolie you meet, they all share similarities, in structure as well as nature to they are all alike.
And have been for over 160 years.

I hope that gives you a better understanding of the term "true to type".

It also explains why we actively resist any attempts to have a standard, which type would you select, what makes it better than all the rest, could it do the job as good as those it replaces and will that selected specialised standard be able to continue to adapt to the changing needs of the people who breed them.
Remembering that the majority of Koolie’s, are bred to fill a need not just for looks.

Through natural selection the Koolie has been able to adopt the changes it has required to meet the need, so some are tall, others squat, some are lean, others chunky and so on.

well said tj

Thanks for that, and the great pic's. I have seen the 1900's dog pic before, and I thought it was much more recent than that, as plenty of dogs around today still look like that. I may be wrong but it seems to me that more recent dogs are leggier than the old ones, and darker merled as you note. It would seem to me obvious that the legginess is a result of outcrossing with maybe Kelpies or borders from time to time, the wide chests show maybe a bit of Qld heeler, and the darker Merles have to be a result of breeding away from whites now days. Modern Koolies look somehow "wilder" than the little collie types, but that is the merling and the longer jaw set perhaps. All very fascinating! Having said that, there is however a certain Kollie "je nais ce quois" which persists.

Hi Shaunagh
As we have said elsewhere the size and to some extent the build of koolies can vary but this seems to be from different work requirements in different areas, a form of natural selection over many generations. Sheep farmers need different requirements to those working cattle in high country and truckies loading semi after semi of sheep or cattle at saleyards need a different style again so each has selected what suites their own requirements. A tall solid dog that is required to work mustering cattle in the mountains is not suited to working where the small finer ones do dashing around saleyards. To say it is because of a different breeds influence is a bit of assumption. It may be that those with such traits are good examples of the breed.

I'm sure that is the case, that lots of our Koolies have lots of other working breeds in them, but I find it surprising and interesting how quickly a breed or strain can change in a few generations with strong selection practices (for good or ill). For eg in the the thread Good working dogs, what traits define them on page 3 there is a photo by Mushoz of 2 Sibes. The change in type is marked, but only took a few generations to establish.

Traits like chest, leg, head can be establish very quickly simply by selecting the tallest, or biggest chested pup from a litter, with in a couple of generations you can influence size and shape very easily.

As you say Kooliemum Mushoz demonstrated how quickly these select changes will impact upon.

You don't need to out cross to bring about these changes, and it is still yet to be learned which breed influenced which, I know a couple of breeders who use Koolie to improve their Kelpies, so it's not all one way.

If we ever learn the true age of the Koolie we may discover the Koolie may very well be a foundation parent of the ACD, Kelpie and the Aussie it may have even influence the Border, who is to know, it is something to think.

Outcrossing both ways, didn't think of that, interesting. I believe that the 2008 best of breed Labrador is a very different looking animal to the 1978 model due to selective breeding, but Gawd, look at the problems the selective breeding brings. Apart from the deafness, Koolies seem to have been very lucky in that way, perhaps because they have been selectively bred for physique and ability rather than the more glamourous appearance aspects of the dog. As for the deafness, well education about not trying to breed a merle superbreed for looks has to have helped. Most people nowdays don't have the heart to put pups down like the old farmers did.

Which is one reason we are against setting a breed standard.


They only did it for the good of the breed, they knew that it wasn't good to have such dogs available to breed back into the gene pool and doesn't mean they didn't hate doing the deed.

This is all very interesting. Came across an old painting of a bull terrier, guess what it did not have the bowed nose of the bull terrier today. I have ordered a book from the State library in Qld "Dog Painting from 1840 - 1940" I am going to go through and see whether there is any artists that captured the early herding dogs. Fingers crossed.

I have people comment that the way Ceejay walks and looks, I had one farmer comment that if she was going across his paddock he would have to double check to make sure she is not a dingo. Just because of her movement.

I think it is a good thing that the way the Koolie is bred and not to a type, I think a lot of dogs have been ruined by this. Temperment and their behaviour is more important than looks with animals and some humans.

if you go out to the home page and have a look in history right at the bottom you will see my name janet klimpel click on that i fond some very old books with dog photos in it of queensland some of these dogs have a merled look to them. they are from the 1800's

Discovering photos from our past does put the impact of breeding into perspective, what we accept as a Border collie today, shared very little in the way of looks to its ancestors.

Take any breed and compare their earliest lines to their current lines and it is scary, there is usually nothing but the name to say they are the same breed.
The beagle is a perfect example and they were bred for a need originally, yet the changes in this one breed is extraordinary, check out this site on the history of the Beagle http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beagles

Yet the Koolie remains fairly stable, within their divers types, mind you they have only be around for about 160 years.

I believe the majority of Koolie breeders have bred for the complete/whole package as their needs are not just focused on looks or just ability, their dogs had to perform everything, from being a best friend, loyal with a willingness to please, (you can't just pull traits like that out of thin air), at the same time they had to be hardy and tough in their feet and body, with great stamina and strength of heart and an ability to think for themselves.

In any breed you will find one or two of these selected traits but generally your more likely to find a hardy type with stamina, strength and power, conjures up in my mind a thick set, heavy boned dog, with a huge chest, feet and possibly head, like a wroti or a Shepherd.

Go for a dog with great heart, willingness, loyalty and good around people, I think of lassie or a Cocker, in fact any Spaniel would fit this description.

So it is truly wondrous that farmers, stockman, people of the land with no eye or need for the pretty, have through just the understanding of the dog and careful selection and patience, produced and maintained the Koolie breed, will all its useful traits and diversity pretty much the same way for nearly 200 years.

Even with the knowledge that genetics is giving us we are still on a journey of discovery.

In my opinion "breeding true" is about dogs that when bred produce healthy pups, free of disease and diformities and with no behavior problems. I agree that there are many different "types" (size, height, weight, coat) of Coolies out there so it is hard to qualify "breeding true" to those traits, but when it comes to health (deafness, blindness, cross eyedness....) and personality traits (aggression, shyness, unsociability...) we can attribute "breeding true" to those aspects. So coolies that breed true would be ones that produce healthy pups with no behavior problems, coolies that DO NOT "breed true" would be ones that produce defective pups and/or pups with personality defects and should not be bred from again. So to come back to "do coolies breed true" we can not look at this term the same way a breed with a set standard would, we have to look at it from a different eye. As long as breeders do their share of work and responsibility in their breeding programe then YES coolies breed true ( no diffective pups or problem behaviors) but there are, like in any breed, breeders out there that do not breed true to the breed.

I think everyone on this forum who owns or has ever owned a Koolie, will agree that koolies no matter how diverse do breed true to type.

Because once you have owned a Koolie you have no trouble recognizing another, no matter it's type, or colour

"breeding true to type"......."no matter what type" The official definition of "breeding true" is:

" specimens of an animal breed will breed true-to-type when mated like-to like; that is, that the progeny of any two individuals in the same breed will show consistent, replicable and predictable characteristics. A puppy from two purebred dogs of the same breed, for example, will exhibit the traits of its parents."

So I think a more elaborate statement is required when saying Coolies breed true to type; they breed true to their parents type. Which would open the door to say that a dog bred true to his parents by breeder A might not be considered bred true by breeder B if their dogs have different types. So unless there is a set standard "breeding true" is a relative term, that can vary depending on whom you are speaking with. That is why I was looking at the term from a different eye, by defining it by health and personality. That approach generalises the term for all our Coolies no matter the type.

God sometimes I think this board is in Chinese.

Thank you leecos

The "official" definition breed true to type, refers to the progeny of any two individual from the same breed, "a pup from two dogs from the same breed will for example exhibit the traits of its parents.(yes I left out the word purebred on purpose)define purity first. In this case of study I believe this term is irrelevant. (Now there's a can of worms)

Koolie’s no matter what type, do exhibit the traits of their parents, consistently, replicate and display predictable characteristics.

Even in the so called world of the pure dog there are differences in character, and traits from line to line, so why should it be any different for the Koolie.

Setting a standard will not purify the Koolie breed, it will trap it as it has done for every pure breed in existence to eventual genetic degradation through lack of diversity, opening the door to an ever increasing genetic failure to sustain the breeders so call ideal of the perfect image.

I'm ok tangent is over.

There are differences from line to line. I was talking about my dogs history in the past few days and the bloke who bred the dam and granddam said that some other koolie breeders may not be too keen on his dogs because he breeds a bit of "eye" in. He has kelpies and koolies, and x's of both, and neither are apparently known for alot of eye, but it is his personal preference and will show in the line (eg. both my dogs have a bit, but only a bit). That sort of thing will always be true in dog breeding, but it is not the same as a structural guideline which as I understand it is more about health and soundness. There are anomalies in Koolie breeding with merling and we know often two merle dogs will produce white, not more merle, so in that way they don't breed true. It has to be in the structure and temperament....just my two bobs worth.

Shaunagh's original post was only breeding true and didn't include to type. Of all the conversations held here it is pretty clear that koolies have a lot of other characteristics that are passed on through the generations which are predictably koolie. Within all populations of dogs there are lines with their own refined characteristics, the fact that there is means the breed keeps diversity and non type traits are just as important as healthy type. If we each develop our own lines with our own preferences which can include eye, when we feel we are losing a particular traight we can dip into a line that is particularly strong in that trait, good diversity makes this simple compared to a breed where all breeders have bred to the line of the Best of Breed at Melbourne Royal for the last 3 years or whoever is the flavour of the month in the show world.
Jim spends too much time with kelpie breeders and tars koolie breeders with the same brush. We can appreciate the need to improve kelpies with a superior breed He also breeds very good working dogs and they are always welcome.
I would be interested to know the definition of official here, for a breed club that is independent of a ruling body that doesn't have a "standard" I would suggest the only people to come close to being able to define such a thing for koolies is our long term breeders such as those that have bred for many decades, I guess they would be flattered to be considered officials.

Hi Shaunagh, great thread.

I have 2 koolies - both different in build. One stocky - reminiscent of a cattle dog - One lean.

Different bloodlines - both act like 'koolies.'

I know this isn't much of an explanation, but if you see 40 koolies together you see 40 different dogs that have certain similarities in look and behaviour that make them the same. It sounds like a paradox, but if you see 40 koolies together you'll know what I mean.

The lack of a breed standard means there's lots of variety - and I think that's a good thing. Breed standards can create their own set of problems - just look at the temperaments of golden cocker spaniels, which in the 1950's & 60's were bred more to conform to a particular standard 'look' than to a particular temperament.

But after a while - when you've seen a lot of koolies - it becomes relatively easy to recognise a koolie.

Incidentally - and I'm happy to be corrected here by breeders and those who know more - I've never known a kooiie that wasn't sensitive or great with kids. They don't appear to have much in the way of aggression towards people or other dogs either. And they way many of them seem to need to 'pat' you and other dogs amazes me. I've never seen that in other breeds.

Check out the pic of my dogs - Precious and Ziggy - the same but different.



Michael

Silhouette
Yeah, Jims main focus is working ability and yard trials and the like. He said he was going to get another couple of Koolies. I think his heart is still broken from being silly enough not once but twice letting go of the Bushy/Temora bitch line! ;) Anyway, the latest suspicion, she having seen the pic's, is that the sire of mine may be from one of Enids dogs, I'm looking into that now. Anyway, I'm planning a trip up that way soon and I've threatened my dogs that if they don't stay off the couch, I'm going to chain them up in the dirt with their tough country cousins. Should be funny, to say the least! Ah, dog breeders, nothing like 'em!

Shaunagh I am sure that the tough country cousins wish they were your dogs.

I have nothing to compare to Ceejay up here, there is no known koolies around here. But sometimes (her photo is up on my desk at the library) I have people from NSW or VIC call in to use the internet at the library and they know instantly what Ceejay is by looking at her photos.

Breeding true is probably breeding koolie to koolie, but I do think temperment should come into breeding. I have come across border collies and have been snapped at, and then the breeder proceeds to tell me what the dogs lines are and how good they are because they won best of some show. To me that is not a good dog.

I believe Koolies should stay away from the Show Rings, I just had an image lots of koolies coming into the show ring and causing havoc by herding up the fluffy breeds.

Well happy to flatter the ForeFathers when I can, but really what I meant by "official" was the definition found in "the breeders dictionary" and on wikipedia. I am not suggesting a "standard" be set or anything like that, but yes breeding true should definitly mean breeding Coolie to Coolie and I know there are enough Coolies in Australia to make sure there is NO genetic degredation And I know that in my breeding program it is not a "perfect image" I am pursuing but a fantastic working ability and style in a healthy and tempermentaly sound dog, in order to fit the definition of "breeding true" I believe in, your definition might be different. Which brings me back to the fact that this term is relative to whom you are speaking with at the time, if you are speaking with someone with similar dog types and caracteristics then both should find their dogs breed true, if people with different dog types and caracteristics were having the same conversation they might not agree. Only if speaking of the term on a health and personality basis would the latter be able to agree.

Ha Ha, or patting the judges to death en mass.

Would that be a form of bribery patting the judges? Oh wouldn't it set the show confirmation ring on fire if we did turn up with Koolies.

I think it's so funny when ppl into show breeds talk about the 'practical functions' of the features of their modern dogs and how they make the *perfect* working individual of the breed - about how they need to move, what their coats should be etc - and the real old working dogs didn't have those features, but their sit on the couch dogs *need* them.

A little off topic but I will add it in for a bit of insite anyway.

I attended a herding clinic a month or so back for city dogs.

I was there with my dog, dad with his two, mum with her one and 4 ladies with 5 "show" border collies, a working stock kelpie and hold for it......... a standard and mini poodle!!! (stop laughing I can hear you!!!)

Anyway to my amazment the mini poodle did better than 2 of the show border collies!!! One would not even go near the sheep and buggered off and one just barked at them flat stick.

That shows to me dogs that they are breed for looks and not what a breed is meant to do and that is herding!!!

What use is a border that runs away from sheep. But on a positive note you can always replace them with mini poodles!!!!

Ceejay when first launching the Koolie Club of Australia, we were asked to supply as many Koolie's we could locate, and their represented types for a conformation show held in Rochester Vic.

The group of Koolie's which showed up were all sizes, colours, one had no tail, another two blue eyes, some had long rough coats with long leg feathers, others smooth and short coated.
They were a collection.

There were three group five(working dogs)judges all looking very serious while we walked our unique group before their intense gazes.

I really don't know what we were expecting, we were just on a fact finding mission, seeing what the so called experts opinions of this literally unknown or emerging breed might be.

As it turned out they were quite forthcoming with their comments of approval on our efforts to take the right direction with this breed, not so much towards conformation or a standard but in understanding their shared traits, characters and personalities.

Their collected advise was not to rush the process, that the Koolie was a work in progress, they could see they all shared similar structural features and strengths in leg, feet, neck and chest.
And to be honest that suited us just fine and we went our separate ways.

TJ that is good to hear. I would love to have seen a photo of that, all the dogs together before the judges. It is a wonderful attribute to the club that you guys are concentrating on the structure of the koolie and their traits. In essence that is what makes a dog. I am so grateful that I chose the koolie breed, Ceejay has given me so much pleasure and that is what makes owning a koolie great.