I read something interesting in another part of the forum where it was said that some breeders believe that it is a good idea not to breed merle to merle if there is pink/mottling on the roof of the mouth. This was part of a comment about why solids should be included in breeding lines. I found this realy interesting because Kelly, who owns my dog Jacksys brother Alby, and who has a lot of experience as a rancher (cattle) in Nevada (and had Auusies and Qld Heelers), said about that comment, "Oh, that's interesting. The old ranchers in the states say that mottled roof of mouth is an indicator of a good working dog". They have their old timers myths and theorys too I guess.

Anyways....My dogs are dark blue Merles, with a bit of white here and there, particularly chest and neck, points. One has not white tail point. So lots of dark merle, but not %100. Both have very pink/black mottled roof of mouth and gums. Their dam was 2/3 Koolie merle tri, no white (granny was a kelpie). Their sire is a koolie dog, with BC in him, but my best recollection is that he was a solid. I would have noticed merling because the dam caught my eye.

Anyway, they are not pure Koolie as such, but mostly. There is certainly enough solid in their background to make me think they could not be MM merles. But the old theory would suggest that they are still risks in relation to white/deaf pups because of the mouth mottling.

Also, one doesn't normally shave their dogs down to bare skin, but Jacksy got hit in the sacrum by a car when he was a year old, and his last lumbar vertabrae had to be wired up. He recovered fine, but the poor bugger was shaved naked all over from the chest back for the operation.....and what did we see....his actual skin is merled, in the same pattern as his coat. He looked like the roof of his mouth! Where he was white, he had pink skin, where he was grey coated, he had greyish skin, where there was black, there was darker grey. I can see it if I pull their fur apart and have a look now. I though merle just affected coat, but obviosly skin, gums, and pink noses maybe.

Is the above news to anyone else, or just me?

Can a not %100 Koolie dog be MM, particularly where the other breed in the backgroud does not have merle at all?

Does outcrossing reduce white/deaf risk in the same way as breeding merle to solid?

What are the pros and cons of the roof of mouth theory?

Are Mm to Mm matings also risky?

Are there any other old myths and theorys the forum members know about Koolies, because with the expertise on the forum it may be a good place to support or debunk, now the science is becoming know.

You can probably all tell I find this stuff really interesting.

I will be watching this thread as I am a learner too. I have tried to learn about the merle gene and it gets a tad technical, if there is anyone that can put it in layman's term that would be great.

I do know it is not recommended to breed merle on merle because of a recessive gene? Is that right? And as a result can end up with more white in some puppies which in turn sometimes lead to deafness.

Correct me if I am wrong.

The one myth that I have heard is that apparantly a blue eye means a better herder and the other myth is that one blue eye one brown means that the dog sees differences in distance better? I don't know how that would work though as it is only pigmentation right?

Ceejay
I have no clue about eyes at all, what about two blue eyes for that matter, eh? The merle gene is not specific to Koolies as other breeds have it, like Aussies and BC sometimes, and blue eyes too. One of mine is wall eyed, the other not. The 2/3 koolie dam of them had two blue eyes. She was a great worker, but probably my brown eyed guy is the better working instict (but much less common sense) than the wall eyed one.It just seems to me that it is much more common in Koolies, more the norm I think????That is wall eyes and throwing alot of merle. Maybe koolies have a koolie specific merle gene which makes it more prevalent. The other breeds don't seem to have the deaf/white problem as frequently either, but it is possible for an auusie to throw a deaf white pup I think.

These are questions for the knowledgable ones, I think.

All this gene theory is really interesting. I did some reading the other day about the merle gene but it hasn't really sunk in yet. I also found a site about tortoiseshell cats - (cat version of merle) which I found a little easier to understand. I have a torty!! But still hasn't really sunk in that I could explain it to someone!!! Give me time and it might stick in the head.

One theory I have heard since researching Koolies is "don't get a dog with a blue eye or blue eyes. They show no fear and don't get on with other dogs."
This is something I think I heard many years ago too but I think it is myth. I put a question about it up on Yahoo Answer (or whatever it is) and the vote was basically that it was crap!!!

The pigmentation in the mouth I've always understood is related to the pigmentation of the skin. Sometimes the dogs lips have bi colours too.

Hi Shaunagh
A lot of people have their own theories which they have developed over their time working and breeding but most don't have a scientific equivalent. Some very well may have developed because they had a terrific working dog that had...a white spot on his shoulder. It was such a good dog he bred it and a couple of pups inherited the white spot so he keeps one of those and it turns out a great worker... This could go on for a couple of generations but who is to say the pup didn't inherit the working ability independant of the white spot? There is no reason why it would need one trait to inherit another particularly when one is a visual trait and the other temperament characteristic. With the rate of development in DNA who knows one day a working gene may be found, I know at least in America it is one thing they are looking for. The merle gene however is quite specific and we hope to have access to the test for that very soon,with regard to the way it works - there is another thread in this section explaining how it is inherited. Because your dogs are both merled even if Mm, if they are bred to another merled dog they would have a 25% chance of throwing a MM pup if the other dog was Mm. There is a chance, but not guaranteed, that some of those 25% could be affected by problems. This is where pigmentation comes in, although I would be more concerned around they eyes and ears, that the less pigmentation the more likelyhood breeding that dog to another merle would give you problems. But anyone breeding merle to merle has to take the responsiblilty if affected pups occur. Because your dogs had a solid parent they should not be MM, unless one only had a few hairs of merle that you didn't know about, hence the importance of the DNA test.

With regard to eyes, the colour can be inherited as blue or be a result of the merle pattern over the eye, some people consider the koolie must have a blue eye to be pure, I would prefer to think that it is a personal preference like coat length. Our personal experience is that they find it harder in bright sun to see stock and tend to squint so we are quite happy not to get them. Also anything that adds to the "oooh it's so cute I must have one" problem is best left out....

This is one for the genetic guru, which leaves me out, i just get a head ach.

But for my two cent I use the mouth method, as did the original breeder of my girls, Frank Kelm, as does Enid Clark a breeder since 1945.

There are no facts to support this method, though I hope eventualy there will be, now there is a test for the merle.

It may uncover how the merle gene effects the pigment, that possibly during gestation the gene begins its effect at one point, say the tail and finishes say at the nose, everything forms at a given point.

Depending on the strength of the genes effect as to how much or little of the origiinal pigment remains.

The theory is just as with the coat, you begin with a solid colour, then add the merle gene, this then breaks apart the colour and creates the broken pattern and possibly the different tones we see in the finished product, there may be modifying genes at play, I don't know.

Anyway adopt the coat action to pigment the same thing happens, you start with a solid colour, introduce the Merle gene and again depending on the strength will result in less or more coloured pigment.

Double merles(I think MM?) can produce white/blind/deaf pups, these pup charateristicaly can have no pigment around their noses, eyes and mouth, look inside a deaf pups mouth and it's pink! no colour or very little.

Look inide a solid dog(not cryptic) and the pigment is solid, no pink.

So with some breeders it is felt that dogs with a strong amount of pigment in the mouth is a better candidate than one with a broken pattern or lots of pink.

The eyes are the same, a blind dog will have both wall eyes, normaly a solid dog will have two eyes the same colour, there are exceptions to the rule.
I know that Aussie can produce a solid black dog with two blue eyes.

But if you read on another post we were discussing eye colours, I believe that the Koolie can produce a true blue eye, but that Koolies which are effected by the merl gene have more of a white or ice eye.

Blue eyes in any breed or species has always indicated a sensitivity to sunlight, this is according to the scientist.

Well that's to the best of what I understand

This is great info. I will read more on it, but that doesn't exempt me from more questions. Ha Ha. It highlights a very important point. The breed Koolie does not equal merle or blue eyes. There seems alot of ignorance about this. There should be more education that merle/blue eyes are merely a gene the Koolie breed carries. Alot of people think oh that dog is merle, it is a koolie. Well, other breeds can be merle as well.Perhaps the frequency of the gene showing up in koolies is because a solid dog has been considered not a koolie, or defective in the past, and people have stuck to breeding merle to merle. In the future maybe breeders can weed out the prevalence by responsible breeding with solids too.

This is such great info for those who plan on breeding. Something that annoys me is when breeders state on their web sites that one should not practise merle to merle breeding then proceed to breed meerle to merle them selves. Not on in my books.

I agree the 'do as I say and not as I do' attitude is annoying. Merle to merle is definately not recommended when you are inexperienced breeding, or don't have information about what is behind the dogs you are breeding from. But some breeders have a lot of experience and practice at predicting the results of a breeding when they have bred several previous generations and can make an informed decision particularly when they have 2 dogs with working characteristics that they want.
My own theory that is not scientifically proven at all is that, if you must breed merle to merle, choose the darkest merles possible with the least amount of white possible and with full pigmentation of all visible skin. It SEEMS to be that more generations of merle to merle breeding is done the more the colour washes out and you end up with large areas of light grey with just tiny spots of black for merle, pink skin and pink noses breeding that back to merle is asking for trouble. Australian Shepherds do seem to have more trouble than we do with blindness and deafness and I think that might be because they have a lot of dogs with Irish trim which can bring extensive amounts of white with it. Again this is only a theory. Beware the breeder that says "I breed merle to merle all the time and never have a problem."

The blue eyes being sensitive makes sense. I have blue eyes and I am light sensitive and my eyes are not a dark blue but light. Okay this may sound like a blonde question but what is exactly "Wall eyed"? Are merled koolies also senstive when it comes to skin reactions or allergies? Ceejay sometimes has to have eye cream in her eyes as she has an allergy that we believe (vet and I) think may be some of the grasses around here? She also gets washed in a medicated shampoo (she soooo hates baths) so only do it when necessary.

What about the ears what does the general population prefer pricked or flopped. I like both types. What advantages/disadvantage of having either pricked or flopped? Sorry about the terminology of flopped I don't know of the top of my head if there is a correct term for them.

I have noticed that standard for some other breeds like the Pyrenean Shepherd and the Aussie Shepherd both require black or majority black on noses and lips, except for the red merles
Perhaps this is also a precaution against the possible breeding of deaf and/or blind pups not just a standard for prettiness. Perhaps some of these standards have a sound basis for breeding purposes.

As a club we understand the excitement a new breeder has preparing for their first mating.
They want to produce pups which everyone will love and of course value.
With the Koolie, you have the first pioneers who through the selection of black and tan collie with semi dropped ears and smooth coated blue merle European collies with pricked ears, throw the Smithfield into the mix and a bit of the merle German Tiger and you pretty much begin to produce litters with merle pups as well as solid.

Could be like silhouette said they original felt the merle pups worked better or they just liked the colour, for whatever reason the merle became a fixed colour.

Then you have the next block of breeders who had been raised to believe that anything in a litter that wasn't merle was a throwback to one of the many breeds which were selected to create the Koolie, so they culled the solids, tri's, and bi's keeping only merle pups.

There is a complete generation who grew up believing a Koolie was a merle dog, I know one breeder personally and understand that many older breeders share his belief that the Koolie was only ever a blue merle and that the red as from the Kelpie influence.

But as the Koolie Kelpie and ACD all share the same original collie bloodlines, I believe the red, as a recessive gene just lay dormant until around the mid nineteen hundreds where people valued the working ability above the colour and so you see an increase of more colour acceptance, until today where the colour of the Koolie is a minor importance in relation to priorities where the complete Koolie is valued above all other considerations.

Regarding merle to merle breeding it is possible to breed them together without incident.
But again it has been the clubs responsibility to provide guidance and support for new enthusiastic breeders and safe breeding practices which insure healthy litters.

Once the merle testing results are in we will learn more about its impact.
In 2000 it appeared that because many older breeders had continued to breed merle to merle that they just accepted the risk of white/blind/deaf pups, when it happened the pup was culled and so the problem was mostly contained.

When a solid influence was introduced breeding results greatly improved, yet many breeders were still traditionally culling solids, so the efforts of the club were focused on a gradual gain of acceptance of all colours and types.

Again there are more experience breeders who have continued to infuse their bloodlines every four generations through, a solid colour, of out crossing to another unrelated line or have used the influence of the kelpie or collie to strengthen their lines.

Whether this is necessary or not will hopefully be answered with the results of our breed spacifity test.
We are still understanding this breed and no one has all the answers, but the questions help.

Hi Guys
I will have another try did do a reply but have no idea where that one went. So here goes for the second time. I was talking about there eyes
My Xena is a dark blue merle with irish trim and has brown eyes. When we go for walks people ask me what breed she is.I say a coolie and I get promptly told that she isnt a coolie as she doesnt have a blue eye. Apparantly a pure coolie has a blue eye and a brown eye otherwise it aint a coolie. LOL I have been told this by heaps of people. They cant believe it when I tell them that lots of coolies have brown eyes and that they dont have to have different eyes. Gee should here them when I say that they come in a solid colour as well.Apparantly I am lying. LOL. My puppy Gabby has very unusual eyes lots of people do comment on it they are very hard to describe but they are like a greeny with a little bit of brown but the top of the eyes has a bit of blue in it. They are unusual but it makes for an unusual colouring. Gabby is a blue merle tri. Just makes her unique though. At least she is different from everyone else. Also it does make it easier to look at all the dog photos and find mine amongst the thousands of border collies LOL
cheers
Danni
ps see if this one goes through

There are also people (can't remember who I was talking to) who thought koolies were only red merle. And some that never knew they could have blue eyes, some who thought they were only long or medium coat, some who think they only have pricked ears, some dropped. The list goes on and is a good reason not to rush into a "standard", just because we got ourselves together to start a club never meant we were "expert" enought to tell people what is or isn't the right koolie and we became determined that it should be a welcome all policy (as long as you are civil, treat others with respect and live within the rules). Eventually physical characteristics will sort themselves out, the main thing is those points that we all know about koolies, their temperament,personality and working ability. One thing people forget about is that although a dog may be registered, it doesn't mean it is bred from and contributes to the gene pool. We have many dogs registered that are pets only and some are desexed. All of these people wanted to be part of the koolie group and they feel welcome when their dog is welcome. Also the next dog they get will probably be from a breeder who registers with the club and may even go on to breed themselves so along the way they are seeing what else is around, what each breeder is producing and just what suites them.
Each annual meeting I try to go through the register and count up how many dogs are registered that are...short coat, medium coat, pricked ears, red, solid etc. The "average" koolie has always been a short coat, pricked ear, blue merle. Some years with two brown eyes and some with one brown and one blue.

I'd like to know exactly too, but as I understand it it is blue eyes, or a one blue eye, or chips of blue in brown eyes. Not sure about other colours.

Ceejay and Shaunagh there is an old thread titled blue eyes that I started about Pixie's blue eyes a while ago (she actually has wall eyes) that goes into great detail about the differences in blue eyes. Pixie's blue eyes are a result of her merle colouring.

Cheers for that :)

My first Koolie Sparky (nearly 20 years ago)had one and a half wall eyes which I think first attracted me to the breed, Nelson had two wall eyes as has his full sister Ellie, Lass has only a partial. Their wall eyes are a pale blue with a navy blue outline and a navy pupil. These glow red in torch light (like dingoes and foxes). I have not found them sun sensitive and I think Ellie's eyesight is exceptional. She can see kangaroos and birds long before Lass or Chad (golden retriever). I just love the wall eyes and get many comments in regards to them.

My Tilly is a good looking dog (of course IMO! lol) but the difference between people liking her or not often comes down to her eyes! She has a wall eye and a half blue half brown. Some people don't like it, others love it. Once they get past her eyes everything else is easy to like about her! Her pretty patterned coat and happy, friendly disposition!

Your Tilly looks a sweetie! Very photogenic! One of mine is part wall eyed as well, only a blue chip in one eye. I personally like the look of it and blue eyes, but some people find it freaky, particualrly on a rough looking dog, makes 'em look craaazzzy, ha ha. I worry though about all the blue eyed cuties that could end up in pet shops and the like because the blue eyes can be so appealing to look at........particularly with ...A LOT OF WHITE.....not so great.

Click to view attachmentMany old farmers prefer their dog to have white on them because of the fact that cattle will stop when they see them unlike others that blend in with the environment. Also it makes them easier to see when they are being cast a long distance and also in longer grass.

I love Tilly's colouring and have attached a photo of my old dog Sparky who had similar colouring and wall eyes to match. This photo was taken about 6 months before she passed over the bridge.

See, these are the pro's and con's. The farmers preference is quite logical for the farmers needs.

Koolies continue to fill needs.
Just for interest, Koolarks, what does the inside of your Koolies mouth look like, if you can, a pic would be helpful.
In fact would anyone else like to produce photos of their Koolies mouths along with a pic of the Koolie.
Like our thread on eyes we can record mouth colours here, possibly even record the outcomes of breeding results, it would be one way to test this particular theory.
Eventualy a pattern of consistancy would appear or the theory would be busted, by a solid mouth having a white pup or something.

Hey Sil could this be done?
Or are there too many veriables to be certain.

I know you need a lot of numbers but it would a start, something to referre back to at a later time.

Just trying to get an image in my head of having to hold Ceejays mouth open while trying to take a photo. Ceejay has wised up to the fact of tablets, as soon as a have a blister pack she hides her head between my knees even when the said tablets are for me, so as soon as I go near her mouth to open it she is think "uh oh here comes the nasty bit". lol. Will have to take the photo I think when she is very sleepy. FYI Ceejay's colour in her mouth is mostly brown/red with a touch of pink.

Do cows even see colour? And whether the white does stand out a lot to them? And if they do see the white, how come the other working breeds don't have a lot of white eg Kelpie. Is this based just on the farmers point of view.

OK, well I've pried both the S.O.B's mouths open, and have to say both have alot of pink on the roof of mouth. Alby maybe 85%, Gentleman Jacksy, maybe 65%. Very mottled.Both have just a chip of pink on the nose, and black around the lips and eyes. Both are quite dark blue merles, particulary the face and eyes and ears. I know for sure that great granny was a solid kelpie. I am almost %100 sure I did not get the sires coat wrong, which is solid, white points and chest at most (consistent with the word that he had some BC in him).

So they have had a solid mating at least 4 generations back on one side, and a solid sire.

Apart from being Mm dogs with the 25% chance of a MM if bred to another Mm, the only risk factor would be the pink roof of mouth, yet some breeders would not breed them on this basis alone. There is often a kernel of truth in the old theorys, but given the other factors people name as relevant from their own experience......

Bring on the DNA merle test!

Quin's mouth is chocolate colour with just a very small amount of pink near the back his father was merled and his mother is solid,
and summa's is just pink she came from two Merle's with a solid grandfather. greyson's is chocolate with pink patches at the back he has more pink then quin, he also came from two merled dogs and just for the hell of it i looked in spices mouth and it is as black as they come no patching or mottling just black and the two little pups have pink mouths with small black patches

This is going to be fun!!!!

Good questions CJ I will be chasing them up tonight and let you know tomorrow. This thread might be the longest one yet.

Cows can determine various colours. After speaking today to a good friend who has had 20 years mustering experience in hard, wild country on tough cattle amongst dingoes, the cattle being used to seeing dingoes notice a dog with white colouring or one with different body shades or even a black dog. That's why koolies are prominent along the great divide. Cattle will stop to look at a different coloured dog and then the dog has them blocked. Border collies are also used extensively on cattle for the same reason. If you muster cattle on a chestnut horse and then go and muster the same mob on a white horse they will most often spook (or you will end up being chased). She also prefers a dog with white on them as she often has to cast them a couple of gullies over and being the lighter colour she can pick them up in the distance. This is really rough country we are talking about.

Ok I have prized a few mouths open ... Pixie both merle parents, red merle and lots of white - pink mouth with a few darker dots.
Poppie both merle parents (sister of Pixie) red merle - pink mouth with a few darker dots. Smith both parents merle - solid red - pink mouth. Harley mother tri merle and father solid tri - red merle - pink mouth. 2 red ACD and 1 blue ACD black mouth

I am chuckling to myself thinking about all of us opening our dogs mouth looking at the colours. Gee what would the neighbours think?

Thanks Ellie's Mum for clearing up regarding the bovines. I was thinking after I posted about Dingo colouring and cows in general. And thought that might be why the react differently to coloured dogs.

I wonder what else we can check with our dogs? What about pad colouring on their paws. Is it true that dogs with lighter coloured feet have a harder time with rough terrain. The reason I am asking with my last dog Zorro Border collie x bull terrier, I was offered $500 dollars for him from a pigging man (I declined of course) and he checked out his pads and said that he wouldn't be good anyway because of the colour of his pads they were pale and wouldn't handle the rough ground. I certainly didn't notice any difference.

Well I had to join in on the band wagon and had to go and have a look. Couldnt help myself.
Inka my black and white border collie has an all black mouth.
Milo my chocolate coloured kelpie has a brown or dark brown all over the mouth.
Xena my coolie is just about all black a few little speckle here and there.
Gabby my coolie puppy has dark brown all over except there is a little bit of pink in the shape of a "y" going from the throat half way. Strange but goes well with a strange dog LOL.
cheers
Danni
ps My friend was telling me that a farmer was saying to check the mouths and if its black its a great worker if its pink forget it as it would be useless.

Ha Ha, the Koolies of Australia must be wondering what the heck is going on this week, poke, prod, flip......

i will disagree with that farmer summa has an all pink mouth and light coloured feet and is a hard worker and after 5 1/2 hours of working the other week did not give up or slow down and she was not foot sore but did have a sore muscle in one of her front legs or shoulder the next morning but it was fine by lunch time and we were going up and down gullies over rocks through mud and clay ploughed paddocks, prickly pears, scotch thistles and barb wire plus thick bush in some parts. ellie also did all this as well she has black feet and mouth and she had to stop and pull out the prickly pears and limped over the thistles summa did not even notice them. spice is the same i think she can run over 6 inch nails and broken glass and not get a single cut on her feet. i believe it has to do with the dogs breeding, brescot's breed hard dogs as the country that they work is very rocky and lots of thistles so they have only kept and bred from dogs that have hard feet regardless of the colour of the dogs feet in this way they have set this trait into their dogs which i find is a good thing as i have seen both spice and summa fly across ground that other dogs have pulled up on and returned to their owners. Quin also has very hard feet as he has come from hard country as well. greyson also has hard feet but not quite as hard as the other three by the looks of things but not as soft as Ellie's. i do believe that the little pups and kaos will also have very hard feet as they have also so come from hard dry country but i will have to wait and see with them

I must comment the same. Having all red merle or red solid, they have a variation of brown noses and pads and so on and naturally they would have brownish or pink mouths (they don't have any black skin at all)

Pixie has pink pads (when they are clean) and she regularlly does 15 to 20 km rides with me on the weekends over all types of terrain and sufferes no damage to her pads or foot soreness. They travel along at a jog to keep up with my horse and very rarely are walking.

They are really keen on a ride and are often exploring and running amuck as they go along. When we come back you would expect them to be tired, but they have a little snooze and are ready to go on the next adventure as if they haven't even been out yet.

I was told my a sheep farmer that they prefer white dogs as they blend in with the sheep and they don't upset the sheep as much. Not sure how true that is cos my two that have a lot of white send sheep everywere where as Kelli is a better worker and is dark.
I will have to look in the mouth of all my guys when I get home and let you know.

Pheonix has the most amazing eyes I have ever seen. the tops are light brown and the bottoms blue/white. People bend down to look at his eyes and everytime he gets them with a kiss LOL still bloody people!!!They always come up red in pictures though.

I have never had problems with my girls feet but Pheonix's are a bloody night mare. He has light feet that look to be a bit scared, some even look like burn marks. His toes are wide spred and he get stuff in them all the time. He also is allegic to "farm grass" as we call it. The hard, sharp brown stuff, great farm dog he would be!!! NOT. Plus since he was in the pound he suffers from OCD with licking and biting his feet. He has about 2 or 3 hot spots at any one time and he just chews them like made. He will bite at his feet so much he makes his bed wet. Even bitter bite will not stop him. I think it is cos of his light coloured feet with wide toes he has so many problems. But his sister was a dark blue merle with no where near as much white as him.



This picture sort of shows his eyes. They are so hard to get a pic of as they always show up red.

But you can also see his feet and how far apart his toes are. They mark on the white of his paws is not mud but scares on him

Hi Rachelle
I had been told about hot spots and my friend is giving it a shot is too wash the spot with watered down betadine (looks to resemble weak tea) dab dry and than put curash onto it which will dry it out and apparantly it works.
cheers
Danni

I think my girls were anticipating a worming tablet shoved in their mouths this morning. What a fight. Well Ellie, red merle, two blue eyes with black eye liner, 7 generations of merle to merle breeding, mostly black with a little pink. Lass, blue merle, half wall eye, merle to merle parents, black with a little pink. Unable to get photo due to the fact it was like wrestling a small crocodile. They both have black paws (this was so much easier than the mouth). I was doing this before I jumped in the car to come to work not realising how difficult it would be, now all I can smell is wet dog and it's coming from me. Will have to go and buy some perfume as I don't think I can last all day. (LOL)

No problem with the cow thing CJ lucky I have a friend who has bred and worked with Koolies, cattle and horses since she was about 2 years old. She and her late husband have contract mustered the roughest country around our district. I remember going out mustering in the mountains with them up steep mountains and through lantana, about 18 years ago on my old horse and I had an amazing day but was totally stuffed (not to mention my horse old Cadet) and then they told me that this was nothing compared to what they normally mustered.

Thanks for the info Danni. I have been using a cream the pound gave me but that is almost emtpy and was wondering what to use next.
Thanks

This is great I have also heard of the feet theory, I have always believed that the Koolie had better feet than many working breeds, but I also believe they have a higher willingness drive which will see them do things that put other dogs off.

No one could get any photos, too bad would have been interesting to see.

This photo is of another bloodline and this bitch is due to whelp soon, it will be interesting to see what the results will be.
Any one want to have a guess.
Click to view attachment

Sire is a blue merle but there are influences of Border collie and Kelpie behind both lines.

Here's some more info for those who wish to have a guess.
Dam is smooth coat
Sire is short coat with blue eyes
Both have pricked ears.
Sire has slight pink nose
Dam full black nose
Sire full irish trim gook colouring
Dam minimal white strong black merle and grey undercoat.

So what do you feel the litter would look like.

Be interested to read what you think,
I'll post the results in a couple of months
Reds have red/brown mouths or mottled, blues have black or mottled mouths.
In a solids mouth (not cryptic) you should find solid pigment/colour no pink.
Now we will all be running around acosting all Koolies no one will be safe.
We all might learn something here.

I will check Smith's mouth tonight but it looked pink to me!! so perhaps he is a minimal merle as we suspected... he certianly looks it so I guess I will still be in the market for another solid red male

Rachelle just as a side track for Pheonix's itchy toes,

Karolina Koolies posted a thread on cures for hot spots and itching in Koolie Health, Genetics, Hereditry, Care, Nutrition etc that may be of help there are a few other threads of natural remedies that may be of interest.

Nice photo TJ we can certainly see inside. Might have a go myself over the weekend but wont hold my breath.

Well another theory has been dismissed about the pads. Both my girls have dark pads and when Ceejay is running after the ball or just running, just runs straight over the bindi's mind you she does pull up short if she gets a stuck prickle and waits for me till I pull them out. She did cut herself on broken glass and I didn't notice until she was in the kitchen and there was blood on the floor. Sliced it real well, but she didn't even flinch when she was playing. It healed really quickly too. Izzy is the same real tough feet.

TJ only new at this but with the litter, dark blue merles some with an irish trim and one or two with the blue eyes. See how I go. I would have said maybe a solid but I think with the little knowledge that I have that may not be possible. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Couldn't a bit of pink just be a random white or speckle spot as appears sometimes in the external coat on a solid?

Libby

That's seems true of European herd guarders where you don't want to the dogs to frighten or startle the sheep (and most of the sheep are white). Maybe it's different where the dogs are supposed to move the sheep? I've always heard that Irish patterning was traditionally valued because of visibity for humans. But so many superstitions cling to the things a dog *needs* to be a good worker, and I think that's a really old phenomenon.

The tapetum in Merles is thinner, which has got to change their vision (I think it would increase clarity of detail vision?). Whether it changes their behaviour I don't know (Choc Labs also have a thin tapetum, and I always think they're the nutty-est Labs). Would be difficult to isolate the effects of being merle from factors of breed etc if it was studied, as most merles have some collie family heritage.

About Phoenix's feet, Wal also has had some problems with his feet. At one point the skin around the toes started to break down. The vet investigated whether he had an auto-immune condition but decided it was *just* allergic. He's on regular ear cleaning with dexone and since starting that (about 6-7 yrs?) his toes haven't broken down again. He also gets sores in the corners of his eyes and these do come back if I let his ears go too long.

His toes look to me similar to Phoenix's - fairly long, white, although some of the pads are coloured. I thought when I got him it was due to growing up on sandy dirt. But maybe they would have been that way anyway.

It's rather OT but I do have a point for raising this (sort of).

Was just reading an article about blue eyes in humans. They've discovered a gene that does it and think that it arose *once only* - so comes from one person - about 6-10000 yrs ago during Neolithic times. Which makes it amazing that it's survived and is so common. They wondered why it might have survived and think maybe women preferred partners with blue eyes because it was more 'exciting'. Considering how much loved the merle gene is, maybe that's why it's survived despite its difficulties. (Although I still suspect it confers some other selection advantage).

My dogs toe pads are merle, as in alternating black and pink pads. Alby 25% black pads. Jacksy 40% black pads. Randomly distributed,no pattern. We are talking foot pads here aren't we, not foot coat colour?

[quote name='shaunagh' date='Feb 3 2008, 06:12 PM' post='6829']

Are Mm to Mm matings also risky?

I don't believe it is risky if you know what you are doing. I have been breeding merle to merle for over 40 years and for 9 generations with great success.

Hi Gundy!
Nice to meet you. It would be great if you did an intro in new members with some pictures. I'm guessing by your name Gundy, that you are . What do you say from your experience are the main points in avoiding white/deaf pups in merle to merle breeding? Do you ever introduce solids, what about outcrossing? Anything else?

Hi gundy
great to see you here. can you tell us what rule you go by for breeding merle to merle, i own gundy's daughter out of brescot dusty (summa)and she has pink pigment inside her mouth and pink foot pads and i was thinking of sending her to a solid red dog of TJ's breeding.
this is summa

and these are my to male dogs would it be safe to breed her to one of these instead of a solid or stick to the solid
Greyson

Quin

Hey Gundy great to see you on the forum, look forward to having your input.