Putting up the topic about ADA needing staff reminded me of Puppy Prodigies

http://www.puppyprodigies.com/Early%20Lear...0Highlights.htm



Do any of the breeders here use the early neurological stimulation program (more detail here http://www.breedingbetterdogs.com/achiever.html)? If you've decided not to, do you think there's a problem with it?

I will be using ENS (early neurological stimulation) with my pups. I have observed excellent results from other breeders (with different breeds, shelties, border collies, boxers, cockers). All these breeders breed for performance homes (like myself), creating future top dogs in the dog sport world (dock jumping, herding, agility etc...). I have found it gives the pups a "leg up" on their training and socialisation, allowing them to expend their mind and boundaries easier and smoother. It is designed to create pups who will be "bullet proof" to our environement, a excellerated socialisation if you will. I have witnessed these pups seek out challenges, show incredible braveness in any situation they are presented with, and also present better physical traits (resistance to diseases, greater stamina thru increased cardio vascular abilities...) All of these benefits only come if this ENS is done properly, these exercises are to only be performed for a few minutes and each pup is different as to how much stimulation they can handle, So it is extremely important to be a good observer and not to push the pups. Caution is to be used for sure. But as a breeder striving to produce "the best pups" possible for performance homes, I find it to be a valuable asset in a breeding program. If breeders are breeding for pet homes, I would say it might not be useful or necessary. http://www.vspa.com/k9/biosensor.htm

You're in Canada, aren't you leecos? You know, I haven't heard of a single Australian breeder using it, and I wonder why - if it is being used, it doesn't seem to be by mainstream breeders - maybe the Schutzhunders, who, as it sounds you are, are aiming to breed elite dogs and regard them as individuals who will have (deserve) an amazing life, perhaps more than the average breeder does. Yes, in the (no doubt, far distant) future when I am a breeder I also plan to use it.

In this country, the number of breeders breeding specifically for sports is proportionally lower, I think, than the US/Canada. Which I think is a pity.

I dont know any numbers or anything but the popularity of dogs bred for performance homes as increased in conjunction with that of the popularity of the dog sports themselves. And in the last 5 years I would say the dog sport world has increased in volume by 2 or 3 times. Not only the more popular sports like Agility or Obedience, but also flyball, dock jumping, shutzhund, hunting, rally-o, frisbee, and herding of course, lolol ( and more...) It helps to have a pup prepared for these challenges and demands that fall upon a performance pup ( travels, people & dog interaction, hard physical work sometimes in hard conditions and you would know about that in Australia with your high temperatures, etc...) If I can do my best to do so then why not Some breeders do have their own form of ENS, specialy farmers, exposing young pups to the barn or hay bale, sometimes even with children in the house you can get something similar to ENS thru the attention and handling the pups get from them, i noticed that similarity when paying close attention to environements some top trialers had for their dogs and mom & pups. Often the whelping pit was placed in a secure area where the pups could venture at their own ease safely at a early age, including things to bump into, climb on top off, jump off of, different textures on the ground, from the soft surface of the whelping box, to wood chips, dirt, grass, gravel, sand etc.... Again all a part of ENS really. We will be having our first litters end of this year, beggining next, so we look forward to starting our program officially We have 4 pups with performance homes secured, flyball, agility, and 2 for herding, all of them were thrilled to find out we use ENS and were honest to say only 2 other breeders ,of other breed (BC), were practicing it.

I think we will give our pups the best chances by doing it, dont you??

I'm sure you do. I hope you'll let us on the forum follow their progress.

Perhaps it raises the difficulty of knowing what is that has 'made the difference' between dogs though (one of my main interests in behaviour) - I am pretty sure that breeders who practice it also have much higher than average standards of selection regarding temperament, athleticism, health etc of the dogs they chose to breed from than most. As well as more skills in dealing with their dogs and pups.

I got the impression that one of the ideas behind ENS was to replicate in a controlled way the mild stressors that pups being raised in more traditional ways would have experienced - getting cold, getting away from mum etc. While trying to reduce the risk of pups being overfaced (as I am pretty sure my boy, raised as a farm dog, and having the worst kind of farm-dog experience, I'd have to say, would have been).

Have you come across an Australian book by the late Scott Lithgow (published maybe 10 yrs ago?)? He was a farmer who bred a magnificent line of working althetes, using mixed breeding. He talks in his wonderful appendix about early stimulation for pups, for me reading that was one of those light bulb moments. What he talks about (it's a while since I read it) I think is not exactly ENS, but a forerunner, based on Michael Fox's ideas. That book has been very loved by Australian trainers, so again, I'm perplexed as to why ENS isn't more used.

ENS certainly seems to have some value from the articles you've posted. I guess to some extent it is a duty of breeders (or should be) to try and produce the optimum puppy that will be the best dog it can be all round and ENS certainly seems to add to that. I mean if you are truly into getting the best dog or the best out of your dogs wouldn't you want to give it the best start possible?

That's certainly my view. Although acquiring a dog usually requires a trade-off, doesn't it - you can't usually get everything you want from any breeder, so you make the best choice you can. And love (for the pup) has got - should have - a lot to do with the choice.

And ppl's high hopes for a pup can be a problem. In Suzanne Hett's book (Pet Beh Protocols) she quotes a study in which it was found (I'm drawing my own conclusions from it a little) that adoptions of cats who went to ppl who were really into cats, tried to get the 'best' cat for them and consequently had higher expectations of what they wanted from their cats, where more likely not to work out than cats that just turned up. One of my training friends and I have argued about this so much (she thinks that if ppl had had good support in selecting the cat, the unreasonableness of their expectations would have been pointed out, and the high return rate wouldn't have happened, I don't think by pointing out that ppl's expectations are unreasonable you change them, necessarily).



So my hope, when I am a breeder, will be to find skilled or at least enthusiastic trainers who will love and keep my pups whether they are able to meet their expectations or not, and who will let them be themselves, not try to force them to be someone else. And will love and keep them even if they have behaviour problems (not suggesting they should continue to live with a dog that frightens or hurts them, of course). OMG, I'm really on my hobby-horse now.

The ENS program does make sense. Having certain stimuli to have a more rounded dog is beneficial in my books. And I know with the socialisation aspect with dogs is vital and the fear factor as well till the age of 16 weeks makes all the difference between a settled dog and a nervous one.

Interesting note our first ever dog was a mixed breed but from a working dog background. Her mum died on her at 3 weeks of age and my mum happened to be visiting the farmers, the man was going out to drown the puppies, mum rescued a little female. This girl lived in dad's shirt as he was doing his farm work, was handled a lot by us and I would assume had a fair amount of stress put on her, she then went everywhere with us even into town for the shopping, us kids used to stay outside and wonder around with her beside us. She was the best dog ever, knew what we asked of her before we did. lol. Especially with cattle work and nothing seemed to faze her at all. Dad could never find another dog that matched her ability and the way she bonded with him and us. She also taught me a lot about dogs and the love that I have for them.

So I do believe that ENS should work, but here in Australia alas we always seem to behind in a lot of respects.

We have some of the most exciting trainers in the world (like Pat Robards, Sue Hogben, Kerry Haynes Lovell, and interesting behavioural vets - Gaille Perry, Kirsti Seksel, Paul McGreevy) but yes, most of us do seem to lag. When I saw Susan Garrett a while back, she made a comment about Australian trainers being a bit like ppl with a rescue dog - not having very high expectations. Maybe there's something in that. Maybe it's just that the numbers aren't high enough in the dog sports for it to be really competitive?

Was your handraised dog ok with other dogs?

She sort of raises the difficulty with knowing what makes a dog into who they are - you can't know who she would have been if that hadn't happened.



leecos - do you find that deliberate cross-breeding to produce performance dogs is much accepted in North America? I can't imagine there'd be very many ppl in Australia who'd accept it. I think someone who set out to do it here would be be a brave person. Although Sil has made me really want a Koolie x Italian Greyhound - can you imagine how fast and gorgeous that would be??

Frieda the dog in question was fine with other dogs, farmers in the ridges used to borrow her and dad for cattle work and she always seemed to be fine with other dogs. But she was socialised a lot from about an early age, dad figured that she better find out that she was a dog at an early age and not a human with four legs. lol.

It does make you wonder about what difference it makes to a dog. Whether they would turn out differently or is it part of what makes them who they are? I always wondered with Jody (my last rescue) who basically was not handled or touched at all for about 7 years of her life, what she would have been like if I got my hands on her earlier she was a lovely dog but with several psychological problems. She was not sure what to do if you patted her, did not approach you to be patted. Had no idea how to relate to other dogs, confused and baffled her. But in essence she was a gentle natured girl.

Is it the very nature of the dog that makes them into what they are or does influences control the way they turn out. Look at some of the abused dogs some end up being wonderful but others turn out not so great no matter how much work you put into them. Has always intrigued me, my dad says I have an innate ability to pick out good dogs. I think it is luck.

My most recent experience of raising animals was my cats who are now 6 and came to me at about 10 days. They are still *exactly* the ppl they told me they were the moment I laid eyes on them - and that is despite my strong belief that I could socialise Cosette, the less ppl social of the 2, so that she would overcome, for eg, her dislike of being restrained. But cats I think are less flexible than dogs.

Weren't they cute??

When it comes to breeder ethics, this is my motto: you ought to select your breeding dogs as if genetics is the only thing that will affect who the puppies are, and raise them as if that's the only thing.

Actually yes cross breeding to produce performance dogs is done alot over here, staffy x , greyhound x, JRT x, etc... It seems to have loss ts value though in the last year or so, dunno exactly why but people are going back to purebred dogs. I know that one of the homes we found for a pup was looking at cross breeds but desired to be able to participate in certain events not allowing these cross breeds, so researched further and found the K/Coolie. My dog trainer mentor is into frisbee and was contemplating a BC/greyhound for height in jumps and speed in catchs, he never did get one but thought about it reeeaal hard. I think it a risk to be crossing anything to anything, never really know what you are going to get, out of a litter of 5 or 6 you might only get one or two dogs suited for the task, and what happends to the rest of the litter? Risk i would not take, I have been approached to put my merle boy over a BC, she is a good worker but I am not about to add to the cross breed population. So I HAD say no. I would love to keep people informed on the progress of our dogs and pups, as long as everybody on the forum is interested, just want to make sure this is a friendly place for my dogs and their pups. I am very proud and in love with my dogs and do not want to put them in a situation where they need to be defended. I have recently set up a web site with my breeder in Australia and am in the middle of contacting everybody i know to show them off, lololol.

Please do let us know what your dogs are doing! How many dogs do you have? What sort of training do you do?

Where in Canada are you? Our family had a holiday there last year - on the west coast and we were very impressed with the people and the beautiful country!

IMHO purpose cross breeding can be a bit of a lottery. Guide Dogs Australia tried with labradoodles for low allergy dogs and found that it was very hit and miss, the dogs were mostly unsuited to be guide dogs due to temperament issues (too much poodle excitement!).

Interesting. I wonder whether it was just a fad and now ppl have seen enough to realise that they still *just* turn out to be dogs <g>

When we were (I was) talking about taillessness a while back, I read in one of the papers - about the work that was done to bring the brachyury gene from corgis to boxers - that F1s will usually be fairly even in type and it's F2s who are variable. Personally I don't usually believe in breeding from crossbreeds, but I don't really have a problem with producing 1st crosses. IMHO, it comes down to the ethics and selection that are applied to the decision - I just don't approve of ppl breeding from dogs (whether they are going to produce mixed or purebreeds) that aren't great dogs.

Well, I'm certainly interested.

We are on the west coast, in the northern part of British Columbia, Prince George to be exact. I am a certified dog trainer and own a dog adventure camp on our 127 acres. I do herding with my coolies, all 5 of them, 2 girls and 3 boys. All in between the ages of 1 and 2 yrs. I am in the process of setting up a web site for them, it is under construction but we will be avaloncoolies.com when we are done. My training is Play & Train, making ourselves the object of fun is my goal, thru toy play, wrestling, basically anything that will "turn your dog on". Most of my dogs will work for a piece of string in the end. I help mainstream dog owners understand their dogs better to improve their relationship and prevent surrenders. My favorite thing are group session, we have lots of fun in a group with our dogs, using each other as distractions and playing games. What do your k/coolies do?

Many of the dogs now being used are Golden X Labs, and they're very successful. Personally, I think they were a bit naive to imagine that many poodles/part poodles would make suitable guide dogs.

Not sure whether temperament/behaviour is as consistent in F1s as physical type.

I've been sitting here with my eyes glued to the computer screen reading all the posts on this topic with interest, I don't have much to add I'm afraid, just personal oppinions. I don't like X breeding vey much because it seems too hit & miss & then what happens to the pups that aren't up to scratch. All my dogs go every where with me, to work with the pigs & cows, out to horse shows or down the street for a coffee or to do the shopping so I'm big on socializing, I've also just started a training course with my two young dogs & would like to try either obediance or agility. I love my dogs & want to do the best I can for them.

Your dogs seem pretty lucky. Sounds like just the life I'd like for pups I bred.

I'm not suggesting that Joe Bloggs who happens to own a Maltese and a Shih Tzu who they chose because they were cute pups and breeds them to each other is going to produce great dogs, by any stretch. It's possible, but it'd be luck rather than skill or desert that did it.

Also, Scott and Fuller commented that different breeds might do similar things in different ways, and if that was the case then breeding them together might not have the expected effects, if you were breeding for behaviour - my interpretation of that is that you might think for eg that you were breeding 2 great working dogs together, but if they had different working styles, then the pups might not be as good workers as the parents. I wonder whether the same might not apply sometimes within breeds too. It's about 12 or more yrs since I read that book, don't own it (it's on my wish list now it's been republished though) but I have some notes I took from it somewhere, will see if I can find them and check that what I've said about it is right.

A dog adventure camp!!!!! Oh please let us have more details!!!!

I found Prince George on Google Maps!!! So what sort of country are you in - as in terrain? How do the koolies handle the cool weather? We had quite warm weather when we were there last July 30°+ some days!

I am currently studying to be a professional dog trainer - but am spending too much time on the computer instead of studying. It's sort of studying - it's about dogs!! Only a small component through my course at the moment. I like the sound of play and train! Fun is good!

Leecos what does a dog adventure camp entail? It sounds like so much fun. I believe in training and fun go together with dogs. When I did dog obedience with our trainer she commented that our class seemed to have so much fun and it was good to see that we did not take things too seriously or get upset with our dogs. Please tell us when your website is up and running so we can all have a sticky beak.

With the cross breeding for agility or sporting dogs, I am a bit apprehensive about it all. What happens if it goes the same way as the Designer dogs, with people popping out puppies just to make a profit? Just my opinion, I have nothing against cross breeds that is all I have ever owned until Ceejay came along. I think if it is done right it would work but there isn't any dog association to control or regulate it.

At our camp we offer, In-Home boarding (kennel free environement), daycare while you are at work (also shuttles go around town picking up the dogs and droping them off in the evening), and training (mainly group sessions but also behavior modification) check it out www.avalonranchdogadventurecamp.com. The K/Coolies loooove the cold, it does not bother them at all, their new favorite thing is breaking ice off puddle by jumping on it and then eating the ice, also they enjoy eating the snow. Our temperature went down to -30C this winter and outside time was kept to a need to be basis but they never wanted to come in really, i would have to negotiate 10 more minutes evrytime. They all had nice undercoats come in, texas was a little slow but eventually it came in on time for the extreme temp. now they are starting to shed it away as spring is poking out its head, time for a trip to the groomers for the shedding blade, lolol. Our terrain here are mountains and lakes, although the actual town of prince george is located in a "bowl", valley. I have some nice pics of them in the snow to show off sometime. The coolies site is www.avaloncoolies.com, and it is still under construction. Hope you all like it. As for x breeds, i myself own a few, and I love them to death but i would not x breed. I find the gamble is too big and the overpopulation of dogs does not need any more help. I have a hope that one day all breeders will breed only when they have already succefully found homes for the litter, x bred or not, that way we can minimize the number of pups abandoned because the ones responsible could not place them.

what a lovely site very nice and i love your koolies nice looking dogs i am glad they can handle the cold i think i would be a royalla pop lol and by the way your guys are working you should get some great pups from them good luck with your training and have fun

Your camp sounds like dog utopia!! Love to see some pics of the koolies romping. -30° is just a bit too cold for me!!! How do the dogs feet stand up to it?? I guess if they're not out there all the time there isn't too much trouble with ice.
When do you think you will start your coolie breeeding programme?

leecos - you own that lovely Mindii! I've always thought her pictures say she's quite a personality.



About mixed breeding - isn't the assumption that it is potentially problematic in terms of outcomes, and that this is an arguement against it, based on an assumption that there are more things we can be certain of when we breed purebreds than we actually can? That there are risks whenever a litter - purebred or otherwise - is bred, that they might not live up to the hopes the breeder has for them?

Wal and I have those roo conversations too :-)

Leecos your dogs are beautiful, I love Texas colouring it looks like he has a touch of snow on his snout. It is amazing how well the handle the cold, just makes you realise how adaptable some breeds are to different temperatures. Had a look at both of your sites, it is wonderful to see what can be achieved when you put love of dogs to a business. Wish I could do something like that but lacking land and the population here is not big enough and to be honest I think most people in Australia are a bit backwards when it comes to dogs and what you can do with them and how to train them in general.

How long have you lived in Prince George? Did you stumble across the K/coolies like I did? I was browsing on the rescue sites and found a koolie x and thought what the hell are they, looked them up and found something special.

Stupid question now, is snow really like the stuff in your freezer? Have never seen snow in all my life, I live near the tropic of Capricorn. Get the heat and humidity, and frosty mornings (I have seen ice). lol.

You must love your life being able to be near and do the things that you enjoy with dogs.

Thank you so much for the compliments, I do love my job, can be demanding sometimes but I love t. Texas is a beautiful boy, he has particular markings for sure, he is solid black on his right side and merled on his left. Depending on how you take the picture, from his left or right side, he can be a solid tri or a merle, lolol. The coolies are fantastic adaptors, I was a little concerned for them when we brought them in due to the extreme difference in temperatures but they never skiped a beat, didnt even notice. The ice can be hard on their pads, had a few cuts this year, but vaseline and booties help with that. The snow is much more powder then ice, only in the melting season does it turn to ice. if I could figure out how to post pics I would show ya, but i am not good at posting pics, have been trying for over a year now and this photobucket pic place does not like me, lolol. My breeding will start in Sept or Oct, I am desperatly hoping Akili will go into heat before, like Aug, so that I have time to do socialisation without the snow, just make things easier on me if it happend that way. but I will go with whatever happends, it is exciting for me to get started, I now the boys are tired of watching the girls go in and out of heat and not get any action, lololol. I think they think I am nuuuuttts.

Well you will have to post the photos of the puppies on your website, so we can all get a puppy fix when it happens. Don't worry about being nuts, most of us in here are. It seems to be a trait quite common in koolie owners.

Have just been reading again a paper that I did read a while ago and quote on my website but seem to have had a mental blank about its relevance to this conversation.

It compared handled (full body massaged) and minimally handled pups raised both in a kennel and in the home and found greater calmness interestingly, I think, in the handled kennel-raised dogs. The home raised pups seemed to have learned to ask a person for help when in a new place, while the kennel raised dogs just went about exploring it. Presumably the kennel raised dogs where more used to isolation, which was one of the things their response to was tested. I've always tended to think about calmness somewhat in isolation, it makes me realise, when in truth I want my dogs to display a degree of dependency, and that might be of more benefit when training or living with a dog than it's calmness. There is presumably a relationship between a dogs dependency on ppl and it's interest in them, the importance it places on maintaining it's relationships with them. The general opinion among behaviour ppl has been that dogs would be calmer if raised in the house. And I guess they might have been advantaged if the tests had been in a house (where most of them in actuality will live their lives), rather than in a novel environment for both groups. An isolation test is presumably a more novel environment for dogs raised in a house than dogs raised in a kennel.

Another study I read recently was about the behaviour of Labs in Melbourne backyards and found a relationship between the amount of time dogs spent wanting to interact with their ppl who were in the house (as you would expect of a dog with a closer relationship to their owners), and how 'naughty' they were. For me it was also interesting that they found yellows to be naughtiest, not Chocs as I would have expected.

Leecos, I love your dogs they are truly beautiful! (Especially since My Matilda is a litter sister to your Gunnah!) And Fly carries very similar lines to your Mindi, so i guess at the end of the year we will be able to compare similar pups! Hence i am very interested in what your dogs are doing! I was wondering though, if you especially chose to persue pure bred dogs why did you decide on Koolies?

Not that i wish to take anything away from these truly beautiful, clever dogs at all, but they aren't actually recognised "officially" anywhere as a pure breed, as far as i'm aware? Don't get me wrong, they are a great breed, especially given what you want from them, but i think it's interesting that someone importing dogs from as far a field as you are would decide on an unofficial breed.

Well thanks for the compliments on my dogs... The reason I chose the Coolie is simple, love at first sight. While I was researching breeds I came accross a picture of Yatahae Nate as a pup and could not stop thinking of them from then on. The more research I did the more I liked what I was reading. No they are not recognized but they cary all the traits I was looking for and did not display some of the behavioral problem you can find with Border Collie (sensitivity), kelpies (no off switch), or Heelers (nippy) etc.... When my Husband and I decided to import we did not care about them being recognized, truly that should not be a breeders first motivation unless breeding for Conformation competition. We were interested in having these dogs for what they are and what they can accomplish. I am looking to produce excellent workers and family companions, it has nothing to do with some club or association recognizing them or not. I strive to introduce this breed to Canada and in the same run steal some of the Border Collie dominated worlds thunder. We enjoy these guys sooooo much we would like more to enjoy them as well.

Personally, I am very very glad to have got involved in a breed where there is no show standard. I think it is one of the best things about this breed that good dogs are judged to be so on things other than eye colour, ear set and the shape of their heads, and perhaps the main reason that Koolie ppl are less cliquey than ppl involved in other breeds.

I totally agree, confirmation and looks as a rule in dog breed circles tend to overpower more with the breeders than their personality and temperment. This is one of the reasons I fell in love with the Koolie, temperment is a very important aspect with me when it comes to owning and loving dogs. There isn't any sense having the best in show so to speak when it cannot even be released out of the kennel as "he is known to bite". I am pleased there isn't any talk amongst any of the koolie owners on here about breeding a dog to show standard, I think you would lose a vital part of what makes a koolie a koolie.(if you know what i mean).

And it doesn't even need to be as extreme as that, imo, to be silly - even really ethical show breeders often choose a temperament that is 'good enough' rather than one that is excellent, which to me seems daft.

We were given Pebbles, Australian Shepherd, because she wasn't good enough to be a "show dog" & the reason she's no good is, now try to stay calm everyone, she doesn't have an under coat, aaahhhh shock horror I'm embarrassed to take her out in public . C'mon so there's no under coat big stinking deal, Pebbles in a beautiful girl & doesn't have a mean bone in her body. Well I guess you all know my thoughts on "breed standards", I love my Koolies & my unworthy Aussie Shepherd they're all perfect to me. And now for a little brag as well Izzi & Pebbles both graduated the Beyond Basics class &, wait for it folks, graduated the local dog school as well. Izzi almost skipped a grade because they thought she was already in grade 2 , I'll get some photos on after we get our certificates Sunday. WOO HOO bring on the unrecognised breeds . Ok I'll get off my soap box & stop prancing around as well.

What I find exasperating about it too is not only that pretty insignificant features are required for showing and so dominate the breeding choices made, but that when ppl realise they aren't going to be able to succeed at showing with the dog, their bond with it dissolves and they have no problem rehoming it. I'm glad it happened that way for Pebbles, she obviously ended up with someone who deserves and loves her better, but that's another reason I don't want to show - because then you have to be prepared to sell pups to show ppl.

And when you're showing you have to find some way to understand their conformation so that there's something wrong with everyone of them - otherwise you can't pick the 'best'. That doesn't make sense to me - there are many variations that are perfectly sound and that, imo, should be recognised as equally 'correct'. By recognising only a small number of the dogs in your breed as correct you limit your breeding pool, and lose variation and genetic diversity.

Congratulations again - your girls are moving up through the classes really quickly, well done.

One day pressure will be applied from here or overseas to recognise the breed.

It's not recognition I disagree with, who doesn't want to see their beloved breed in the history books.

It's the showing, that's why having the breed recognised on the Sporting registrar was so important to the Koolie’s future

We have all the privileges of the pure sector, access to all ANKC functions, recognised by our breed name, allowed to remain intact, our own recognised database and registry, everything but the showing.
Why would you want to go further.

Some see it as a power play whichever group is selected to represent the entire breed to the world, wields the power.

It happened that way for the Border Collie in America, the oldest original breed group refused to accept recognition, because they felt that the breed would be ruined if showing became available.
Like us they wanted to preserve the working lines.

So a breakaway group took the opportunity and become the recognised breed in America.
The original breed group still exists, but they find it annoying that their own country let them down in this way, just to line their pockets.
Now like the Kelpie there are two entirely separated groups of the breed, the working group and the showing group, I suppose it’s ok if you have huge gene pool, but can’t see any good coming out of having two separate groups, it would eventually impact upon the breed as whole, the Kelpie suffers from this shakers disease which appears in both groups, I’m not saying the split caused it, but it doesn’t help it either.

I hope that when our turn comes that our country will understand the need to deny showing.
We take every opportunity to gather support from within the ANKC and around the world.
Maybe it is possibly to write a new chapter in the pure breed book.

Oh I hope that the Koolies will lead the way about having a breed recognised without the showing. You see through history with different dogs how they have changed in looks and other genetic factors. It will be interesting to note what will happen in the future. TJ I didn't know about that with the Border collie breeds. And with the kelpie I didn't even know about the show variety, when someone showed me their "show" kelpie I said where is the tan points. Well I was not too popular, was corrected that this was a show quality dog, I replied well I prefer the good old workers. I am really hoping that this won't happen to the koolie, makes you wonder why as a society we seem to be dominated about appearances.