WOW. She is just brilliant. I'm serious, she should go on the telly,

Yeah, shes getting very good at weaving! The fishing goes on the whole time we're there. She made a giant pile of things she fished out of the river and onto the beach, it was like she was collecting them hehe. I was thinking about doing a herding clinic with her but I'm not sure where to start. Also how do I get her on telly?

niki

http://www.petresortsaustralia.com/PETRESO...20Pet%20on%20TV

That's one link I know of for talent spotting!

What was that she was pulling out of the water?.....and can we have some more you tubes!Apart from the fact she is fantastic to watch, it's good for the breed to put them out being their fab selves on the WWW.

she was fishing logs out of the water. I dont think the tv thing would be great as she is very scared of things like bright unusual things, she tends to bark at them non stop, silly girl! I will be putting vids on youtube of her doing agility once she gets into it a bit more at my club. I do love putting things of her on the net. Just so you guys know we are still looking to rehome her to the country as she really is a lot of work in the suburbs and my family is a bit frustrated by her, we will keep her untill we find a suitable home though as i love having her around, if only i lived on a property! (or she was a little less persistent )
Maybe she will grow out of it before we get a chance to rehome her, that would be nice!

niki

You think you have problems. We here in the inner West are currently watching the Wild China series on the ABC on Sunday nights. As per usual Alby caused a calamity at seeing other animals in the lounge room. They were showing the ONLY ever filmed mating of the Giant Panda in the wild. Who rather unpleasantly attempted to interpose himself between the boy and girl Panda on the TV nearly knocking the teev over, Alby, that's who (he is as possesive and territorial with what's in the telly as well as the Park. The usual rebuke from us is a firm "outside for barking!" He does obey and skulk out, checking every 15 seconds if he can get back in. Last night it was "outside for barking and trying to extict the Giant Panda!". He is two, and we only ever have the odd random incident now, mostly to do with territory. No biggie, but I promise you, he was a rotten little (lovable because of his spirit) *B* until he was a year old, would leap across the room and literally go for Jacksy's throat, really. But one day he settled right down, about 12 months. He is still spirited, but I have to say that he is actually a more obedient dog than Jacksy overall. Hang in, and be firm with her. Will still bear in mind you are looking for a home for her though.

Hey,
Yeah hat sounds exactly like belle, every time she has destroyed something i yell at her and she gets all sooky and lies in a corner whining and then i feel sorry for her and want to go and hug her (I dont because then the punishment is useless). I have recently heard of a "dog off" device that emits an ultrasonic noise and you can activate it whenever the dog is doing something annoying, apparently they hate the noise so I might try that and see what happens. She's so weird with dogs though, I took her to an agility trial on sat with my staffy and she met heaps of dogs, she was fine with all except this cattle dog x which was smaller than her and it didnt do anything, it actually ignored her, and she just started to growl at it without being provoked????/ She sometimes does this at the park too and its always at dogs smaller than her.

Here is another video as per request :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-2B0NBnXvU

there are also vids of my other dog on there if you are interested
xx niki

Well, in the dog behavior universe the other dog did something to get her goat. Be interesting to know what it was. Koolie Mum may correct me or may add further insight, but maybe the particular smell of the other dog brought the aggro out in her. But why that dogs smell and not the others.....hmmm....interesting. I think with dogs it so often comes down to territory, which they interpret differently to us. Maybe the other dog intruded in a way only dogs would get.Well the real issue I guess is to get her to be more polite regardless of what threats she perceives. Honestly, the only way I deal with Alby with this stuff is to keep a good eye on him and close command. I think it's one of the reasons he is actually more obedient than Jacksy. I guess I've spent more time on it out of necessity. Jacksy never had a prob socially but to tell the truth he is activity focussed and pretty well ignores other dogs. Neither of them get out and play with the pack aimlessly. It's all the business end for them always. I guess that's what they were bred for though. I note your staffy Pepe. They are bred to be social and playful. The thing is though it never actually comes to physical fighting, except when Alby was young and pushing the boundaries with his brother, but never fought with other dogs despite his display and carry on. As I said, I keep a firm command on him still, and he likes the boundaries. I don't know whether I'm too keen on things like "dog off", only my personal preference. I think it is more important to get the dog to obey YOU rather than a random noise, plus she will have to learn all over again which will take longer as she is already obedient to you in 99% of ways. How is she getting on with your older bitch now. Have they sorted themselves out yet?

The You tube is Fab, and the soundtrack and editing too. AAAWWW she is still just a little baby up and down those ramps and being so good!She'll be as confident as Pepe soon. That weaving is seriously impressive. I've book marked the page and will watch out for more.

Funny you should mention the growls. Yesterday when the OH went to pick up lunch we waited in the back of the car with the boot up (stationwagon), sittin in the back with the girls when a ute pulls up with a border collie (worker). Well Ceejay started up a growl so told her to shush, which she did. Then spotted a german shepherd across the street and started up again, could not get her to quit on that one. And it was a whole 100m away. lol. I think she is protective of the car or me, if she is away from both she is fine. Just a quirk I guess.

Oh that's right, I forgot to mention Alby's in car bad behavior. Yes, it is all about territory. We were in Aldi once and could faintly hear a car horn going on and off forever. We came out to load the van and to our horror and embarassment the honking (which had been going on for quite a while)was coming from our van. Jacksy was in the way back cringing with embarassment and knowing those of the dog species in the car would be getting into trouble soon, and there was Alby with his best ugly face on,in the drivers seat, paw pressed to the horn and barking at a German Shepherd (who he actually knows from the park)who was walking quietly past with his owners. He had clearly being doing it every time a dog went by. SHAME! But it was all about HIS van see.

I am laughing my head off here, Alby has obviously read the car manual to find out what the horn does. Road rage with a twist. lol. Bet that made people look twice to see a dog at the wheel honking the horn. You should try and get it on video.

This is what I think...If you're actually watching when it happens, you can usually see a process of behaviours occur, rather than just the explosion at the end, and can work out what caused it. But otherwise it's really just anybodies guess.

It can be that the other dog got too close and made the dog feel uncomfortable and pressured (I think a relatively common cause of snapping in herding dogs - they often like their personal space bubble a bit bigger than retrievers or bull breeds - don't think bull breeds have *any* personal space bubble lol). 'Drivey' dogs who are crazy about the stuff their ppl do with them/give them - like Wal - are more likely to guard access to their person from other dogs or even just to be so focussed elsewhere that a dog 'in the way' really annoys them). And it can be that something happened elsewhere that concerned or over-excited the dog and caused it to redirect onto whoever was nearest.

A very reliable come-when-called functions as an excellent positive interrupt - most important cue of all imo.

Great vid - I've added it to my other ppl's koolies playlist.

Yeah I am not too worried about the growls as long as she doesn't act on it but I was hoping to have a puppy that I could trust in social situations like at the beach/park so its a bit disappointing not to have that now. She still doesn't get along with the bitch, we have only been having controlled on leash sessions, allowing them to get near each other but not touching and then waiting until both settle down and are comfortable enough to go to sleep in each others presence, this is going well but I have not had the guts to put them together as of yet. I think belle's problem with dotti has upset the social order too because my staffy had a go at my border collie the other day which is the first time they haven't gotten along in 4 years so its all a bit hectic around here.

Does anyone have a suggestion on how I should react when belle growls at/dominates another dog? Because she completely ignores me if I try to distract her and she gets really sad and withdrawn if I punish her verbally so I'm not sure what the right approach is...

Punishment (including reprimands) will increase the severity of dislike that dogs feel towards each other - it confirms that the other dog brings bad things into their world. Punishment can often stop the behaviour as it occurs, but it can't build the relationship between the 2 dogs that you need if you are safely keep them together.

You've got to be careful as you do it, and there's no substitute like having someone like Gaille Perry from SABS guide you through it, because you can accidentally teach them that being nasty will be rewarded, but the goal of most beh mod programs for snarkiness is for the dogs to learn that the other dog is a predictor that good things will happen to them. You work both at a classically conditioned and an operant level (ie, both at the level of emotions and of choice).

I think it's a really good idea to reinforce dogs when they make good choices in their interactions with other dogs - for eg, moving away, looking away (all the calming signals/displacement stuff that they do that reduces intensity of interactions). When you start watching for this stuff you'll probably see a lot more of your dog saying 'I'm starting to freak out about this...it's getting worse...". It's much easier to intervene then, rather than once things have got out of hand.

I like this description of how to teach a positive interrupt (bottom of 1st page). I use this alot with Wal. It's something, like a recall account, that you have to keep topped up, but it's so worth it.
http://www.berkeleyhumane.org/PDFs/Resourc...sh_Reactive.pdf

Nikki, is Paul McGreevy one of your lecturers? Do you know if he works clinically? I expect not, but he might be able to give you some good info.

And another thought, if guarding is an element of the behaviour, it's more challenging to treat. Although simply being aware of what is being guarded can help you avoid risky situations.

Alas, he has not. It was the byproduct of having his whole chest and face (and fangs) pressed up on the dash and windscreen, and I suspect the noise only added to his alarm and aggro at seeing another dog have the HIDE to come within a stones throw of his van.......but it did look pretty fun though. I probably could get him to do it again, just have to borrow some harmless toothless old pensioner duchshund or such to get him inspired!

Exactly! I find Alby mostly got (and occasionally still gets) snarky when other dogs come into the periphery of "the game". As we do lots of ball games, what he does is he chomps the ball in his mouth and gets his heckles up and will not drop it. This has improved gradually as he realises GRADUALLY that that stops the game, and even if there are other dogs about that the game goes on anyway.

The van behavior is ongoing and a shocker and 100% territory related. Not good to be driving with a mad dog leaping forward, and I don't have the wherewithal while I'm driving to teach him not to do this completely adrenaline driven and sudden behavior, it's too dangerous and to deeply imbeded in his territory brain section so ......he gets leashed and tied in the van. Simple. Then he is a "good dog", he he.

As far as territory goes, my dogs territory in public off leash is about 25-30 metres. We noticed this at horseshoe dog beach in Newcastle. It occurred one day that no dogs were planted near us this much either side on this popular dog beach. Then we noticed Jacksy doing this almost compulsive pacing tratting thing up and down 25 metres this way, then 25 metres the other way. Then we noticed (bless him), that he in fact was dilligently and silently, every time another dog came into the territory, just movin' em along, pushing and hovering them to the other side of the 25 metres. That was rather pleasant as we always had plenty of towel space, ha ha. Then Alby brought his own particular genius to the team, and would bark and hustle the dogs off, which freaks people out and which had us banished to the far bad dog end of the beach out of embarassment.

Honestly though, there are some dumb dog owners out there. The amount of times people who were in fact walking up the beach with their dog would stop fair in front of us when Alby barked and stare or freeze, thus getting their dog to stop as well, thus frustrating Alby, thus getting their own dog into protection mode, thus exacerbating the drama I can't tell you. I would have to say innumerable times, "just keep going, standing there and abusing me is making it worse". I know, I know, my dog was being a nut bag, but unless people are willing to try and learn a little of overall dog psychology.......I reckon the basic command to teach humans with dogs in public places (where all the dogs territory behavior is going to be triggered one way or another) is, "keep movin' folks, nuthin' to see here, just move along, go find a patch for your own dog". I may also be a bit of a nut bag when it comes to my dogs, but it works for me.

I just meant that if the dog is guarding resources, then rewarding it for good behaviour around other dogs is harder, because that might evoke a guarding response. :-)

You need to keep them subthreshold so that you can teach them that the good stuff comes without them having to guard it or you (obviously more difficult to manage when the problem is between dogs that live together).

Paxy too becomes very focussed on things and is extremely hard to get to look at me under distraction. When we walk I verbally mark when she looks at me - if I can reward her without being to unco I do! Hmm I did find out accidentally that blowing on her ears will get her to turn her head. I think I let out a sigh of frustration one day. Niki have you cued Belle to "look" at you? Have you tried luring her with a high value treat to look at you? This is what I sometimes have to resort to with Paxy, then a series of reinforcement for when she continues to look at me.

My previous dog was mildly leash aggressive, fine when off leash with other dogs but I think it was a protective thing about me to some extent when on leash.

Shaunagh - Horseshoe Beach is a disaster zone! The beach is so small most of the dogs are on top of each other and most people don't seem to have much control of their dogs. I'm going to take Paxy down to Redhead Beach when she has better recall, nice long beach where everyone is not on top of each other!

It is probably important not to chastise the dog for growling because this is their warning sign. If you chastise a dog for growling so it stops growling its next step will be at a higher level which is probably attack with no warning. Body language is the best give away and to distract them as Kooliemum said (good article), before the "bad" behaviour starts, ideally before they get to a growl. Change direction, or get them to sit or drop, rollover, shake paws, a series of behaviours to get their attention off the other dog or whatever is setting them off. Remember you (speaking generally not anyone specifically) are the one in charge and if you know or suspect they might react it's really up to you to take that first step OK now we're going this way or going to do this before they get antsy. It's hard though because we ourselves get distracted too and sometimes forget to watch!

One thing occurs, and remember I'm just speaking from personal experience and what has worked with my dog which seems to have a similar temprament to yours (he's from Newcastle/Hunter way too BTW ha ha, maybe they are evil twins!). I do not yell at Alby. When he plays up indoors he gets a very firm instant command, eg "outside for barking" is a common one because he gets jelous of attention (well, they both do and bustle each other out of the way to get closest to me, but Jacksy is not so vocal so doesn't get in trouble so much). Anyway, I don't yell or startle but I am instant to address it, I also point to the door (hand signal not verbal command alone). He now knows that means go outside by himself. At first I would have to walk him to the door (not drag or touch him, but make him walk out himself) and with hand signals so he understood where he had to go, and also because it added a bit of my physicality to the scenario. Now when he gets too hectic with barking inside, he goes straight out on command. Then he has to sit out there till he is calm. I do not necessarily close the door on him ( sometimes I have forgotten he is outside and leaving him there defeats the purpose because there is no reward ie coming back to the pack). The point of this excercise is that he excludes himself from "us" when he barks indoors, and he hates it. When he has sat calmly for a while, he can come back in, but on command, no skulking in allowed. Works every time. This operates on his home pack instict, which is very strong. It is unpleasant for him, but also gives him a way out of the dilemna with good behaviour. I never leave him out for more than a minute or so. 10 or 15 seconds does the trick now, or even a long glance doorward sometimes.

Now, some things you just have to work around. If you refer to him in the third person in his presence in the house he gets all pushy and attention seeking. Well, you can't just not say the dogs name can you? No, but you can give him a new one for private human discussions. Don't ask me why, I have a twisted sense of humour, but I've taken to refering to him as Melissa lately He would die if he understood!

When I used to work in dog daycare (and at times dealt with groups of up to 10 large, full-on dogs at a time) I taught the dogs that if I took their collar they'd get a treat, and on the few occasions I had to deal with a squabble, and the many occasions a near squabble, I took a dog by the collar and it came with me of it's own choice. With them I didn't really bother adding any operant element to it - I just wanted them to think 'she's got my collar, I'm going to get a treat', that's actually all you need for an interrupt. Actually they would all pretty much stop whatever they were doing at the sound of my voice - and I don't think I raised my voice or reprimanded (a dog - ppl is a different story lol) in the 1.5 yrs I was there. If you have done plenty of repetitions when you don't actually need them then you get a very reliable behaviour, but you do need to keep it topped up. When Wal's interrupt deteriorates I just do a few 'Wal'=treat and then it improves again. Would be better if I did it before I noticed a deterioration, though.

I'm not a yelling kind of person either - well with dogs that is - kids hmm lol! Paxy has learnt the command "timeout", when she takes liberties too far with her teeth or manners. Same as you Shaunagh only brief and she takes herself out now! Mind you she gave herself one yesterday in the toilet. My son thought she was outside and so did I until I went out and she didn't come when called. I started to get anxious and thought I'd better search for her but had to go to the loo first. Opened the door (which wasn't fully shut) and there she was! Must have been in there about an hour I think and she didn't even touch the toilet paper!!ROFL She was very pleased to see me though!

Bless her! Maybe she thought she was in some "time out" and didn't play up in there for fear she'd never get back in.

hey guys, thanks for all the advise. i do have a command to make her look at me "leave it" but I probably haven't trained it as well as I could so I will work on that. Also the banishing them to outside is a good idea and i think i will start doing that. When belle does go for a dog, ie my cattle dog, and we break them up, she continues to try and fight like we drag the away from each other and dotti the cattle just ignores belle but belle keeps on pulling to get back to dotti and start fighting again. This happened at the park too where belle would keep going back to the one dog she was picking on so I think the only thing I can do there is keep them separated?

Also I'm thinking of doing a bit of herding with belle and I was wondering if you guys know where/how I can get a herding instinct certificate?

niki

Or you could do what I do, and classically condition it, rather than train it - I (almost) guarantee that it will work better and it's much easier.

Nikki - have you got Susan Garrett's Shaping Success? (being an agility trainer I expect you might) She gives a good description in that of how she convinced Buzz to be nice to DeCaff (using reward exclusively), who he really hated when she first arrived. Buzz really doesn't care two hoots about DeCaff or any other dogs apparently, but he doesn't fight.

there are some new photos of her in the noah's ark photo section
niki

hey Niki, everyone on the forum will tell you I'm a bit of a dill...will you link me up to the pic's...I can't find them.
Cheers
Shaunagh

It took me a moment of thinking "Noah's Ark" where have I seen that - it's in the websites and photos section Shaunagh! I had to go and look to find it!!

If you click on 'view new posts' it should also come up as it is a new topic and one you haven't viewed.

sure, here's the link incase you still haven't found it
http://koolie.net/exons/index.php?showtopic=1680
i'm about to add some agility photos because we had a fun agility day today at a friend's property :)