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KoolieMum
I can't get the whole article without paying for it, but this is the abstract. I have often thought that the recommendation to train often is more effective at getting ppl to form a habit of doing it, rather than particularly relevant to the actual learning of their dogs. And that 1 session can see a dog learn so much, when multiple sessions seem to muddy the waters rather than enhance that learning.

Iben Meyer, Jan Ladewig. The relationship between the number of training sessions per week and learning in dogs. Applied Animal Behaviour Science.
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Abstract
Despite the fact that most domestic dogs receive some kind of training, surprisingly few studies have been undertaken to analyze the process in detail, e.g. the question of how often training should be done has not been investigated in dogs. According to the Danish animal protection law, laboratory animals, including laboratory dogs, must be habituated to personnel and laboratory procedures before experimentation. In order for the law to be implemented, however, better knowledge about the effect of different training schedules on the learning performance of dogs is needed, something that is also of interest for owners and trainers of family dogs as well as working type dogs. The purpose of the present study was to investigate the effect of two different training schedules on the number of training sessions required to reach a certain training level. Using shaping and clicker training, 18 laboratory Beagles were trained to perform a target response. Nine dogs were trained once a week and nine dogs were trained five times a week. The results of the study show that dogs trained once a week learned the shaping exercise in significantly fewer training sessions than dogs trained five times a week. In addition, weekly trained dogs tended to have higher success rates at the different steps of the shaping exercise than the dogs trained five times a week. The dogs trained five times a week completed the shaping exercise in significantly fewer days than the weekly trained dogs. It is concluded that for dogs learning a given skill, weekly training results in better learning performance than training five times a week, when performance is measured in the number of training sessions required to reach a certain training level.
Bluedog
Does the article mention somewhere how long they are trained for during each training session? I think this would probably have a big bearing on the amount of learning a dog could do too.

You're right in that it's usually the ppl that need the training habit not the dog!!

Basically when introducing a new behaviour it is a short time approx 3 minutes maybe once or twice a day and sometimes it's certainly not every day! Trying to introduce only one new behaviour at a time/week. Reviewing how learning went each session. Aiming for small errorless learning steps with pos reinforcement.

Sometimes it is the steps on the way to learning a behaviour that are too big that cause problems together with too long a training session.
KoolieMum
QUOTE(Bluedog @ Apr 27 2008, 03:44 PM) *
Does the article mention somewhere how long they are trained for during each training session? I think this would probably have a big bearing on the amount of learning a dog could do too.

You're right in that it's usually the ppl that need the training habit not the dog!!

Basically when introducing a new behaviour it is a short time approx 3 minutes maybe once or twice a day and sometimes it's certainly not every day! Trying to introduce only one new behaviour at a time/week. Reviewing how learning went each session. Aiming for small errorless learning steps with pos reinforcement.

Sometimes it is the steps on the way to learning a behaviour that are too big that cause problems together with too long a training session.
I've sort of lost the article...trying to find it...I found it outside the library, and think I might be able to get all of it if I can actually find it...(I think some issues of that journal aren't correctly referenced in CAB). (edit: I'll stop blaming the computer now - the whole article isn't published yet).

As far as length, imo, if the dog's still into it, why stop? If you follow the old advice, and stop after a great response, you may punish that good response, so while that still might be the best thing to do, you should associate the stop with something good but less good than what you were using to reinforce during the session. And of course, in reward training, there is no need to make a particular effort to stop on a good note, because they're all good. And if the dog gets confused or loses interest, it's better to stop then even if that's the worst part of the session.

But I guess that in the paper they would have had to control for the length of session or that would have invalidated the results.
KoolieMum
When I do give clients stronger recommendations on how much they should train, I find it more helpful to advise them on the number of repetitions to do (which they can do easily by counting out that number of treats beforehand), rather than a duration, because there is obviously great variation in how many reps different ppl will do in the same amount of time.

Thinking further about this paper, hope it will lead to future work in analysing the effect of other gaps between sessions - the impact of second-daily, twice wkly training etc. Because that would be even more relevant to training classes and beginner trainers.
Bluedog
QUOTE(KoolieMum @ Apr 27 2008, 05:11 PM) *

When I do give clients stronger recommendations on how much they should train, I find it more helpful to advise them on the number of repetitions to do (which they can do easily by counting out that number of treats beforehand), rather than a duration, because there is obviously great variation in how many reps different ppl will do in the same amount of time.


How many reps is one of the things we discussed on our course. Steve Austin aims for 10 out of 10 reps with 100% attitude in a 10 step plan (sounds like AA!). He works on the basis that it can be 10 reps over any amount of time depending on the task being learnt but it's important not to fatigue the dog's willingness to learn! Of course being human we always want to know "how many, how much" (exercise plans particularly come to mind)!

It's really a balance I guess between no of reps and the duration so the dog is still interested and giving 100%. Some dog's interest drops off rapidly but if the dog's having fun go for it! It can also depend if the right motivation is found for the dog ie some dogs just aren't into food treats. It would also depends on what phase the dog is going through whether it is learning the behaviour or you are training (reinforcing learnt behaviour).

Another instructor has mentioned the use of letting the dog "goof off" after a good training session, using a release command like "free" and letting him play around and being silly with the dog whereas after a "bad" session he may just walk the dog back to say the car with little interaction to let the dog think about what happened.
KoolieMum
QUOTE(Bluedog @ Apr 27 2008, 07:21 PM) *
How many reps is one of the things we discussed on our course. Steve Austin aims for 10 out of 10 reps with 100% attitude in a 10 step plan (sounds like AA!). He works on the basis that it can be 10 reps over any amount of time depending on the task being learnt but it's important not to fatigue the dog's willingness to learn!
Bob Bailey says 8 out of 10 is enough for most stages of development of the behaviour. This is only relevant to structured (shaped) behaviours, though. As most ppl train, not sure whether this concept could be used. Requires quite a clear plan for the training (more experienced trainers just don't need to write it down and can usually make it up to a certain degree as they go along)

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Of course being human we always want to know "how many, how much" (exercise plans particularly come to mind)!
And perhaps without it, beginner trainers especially are a bit lost.

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Another instructor...after a "bad" session he may just walk the dog back to say the car with little interaction to let the dog think about what happened.
Personally I doubt that using punishment in that way would be particularly effective. And whether effective or not, it's my responsibility as the trainer to make the session good, not the dog's, and punishment always implies that it is the dog's responsibility - the dog should not realise that it was a 'bad' session, imho.
Bluedog
[quote name='KoolieMum' post='9102' date='Apr 27 2008, 09:18 PM']
Bob Bailey says 8 out of 10 is enough for most stages of development of the behaviour. This is only relevant to structured (shaped) behaviours, though. As most ppl train, not sure whether this concept could be used. Requires quite a clear plan for the training (more experienced trainers just don't need to write it down and can usually make it up to a certain degree as they go along)[quote]

Agreed - most ppl training their ordinary pooch would possibly find it a bit too much detail.

[quote]And perhaps without it, beginner trainers especially are a bit lost.[/quote]

Now have to put my money where my mouth is, because just realised that this what I have to do for another assessment - set up a training program for a client!



I should have mentioned the instructor was answering hypothetically to a question about always ending on a high. He did add that if the training session was not a good one for the dog it was his failure not the dog's.
KoolieMum
QUOTE(Bluedog @ Apr 27 2008, 10:47 PM) *
Now have to put my money where my mouth is, because just realised that this what I have to do for another assessment - set up a training program for a client!
Do you have someone lined up? Is it a one-one problem-solving or general training program that you need to do?
KoolieMum
QUOTE(Bluedog @ Apr 27 2008, 10:47 PM) *
most ppl training their ordinary pooch would possibly find it a bit too much detail.
And the behaviours they are teaching are relatively simple - by which I mean that they are 'just one thing', not that they aren't challenging for the dog to learn.
Bluedog
QUOTE(KoolieMum @ Apr 30 2008, 12:43 PM) *

Do you have someone lined up? Is it a one-one problem-solving or general training program that you need to do?


It is an obedience training assessment. We have to think of a dog training scenario (I'm using a friend's dog as a base) and design an training assessment form, training progress and evaluation form and write a Training Plan including goals, duration, process inc techniques, implementation of consequences, phases, motivation.
At prac training they encouraged us to get our hands on as many dogs as we could whether privately or through a dog club, so that is my next step!
Next assessment is one on habituation, sensitisation and generalisation!
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