I am really curious about vegan feeding. I don't intend to start doing it with Wal, because he's on a prescription diet, but am still interested in it. James O'Heare has just put out a free ebook for others who are also curious. http://www.vegandognutritionassociation.co...gnutrition.html

never even heard of it. I spose I'm sceptical due to dogs being designed to eat meat & veg/cereals what happens when you take the meat element out...but I'm a natural feeder so thats just my thoughts.

I haven't read the whole thing but I thought this statement was particularly interesting and possibly true in regard to some of the commercial foods available. IMHO it is more of an ethical decision perhaps more on a way of life for yourself that you extend to your dog - don't think cats would cope that well really.

I don't use commercial foods as I have very little faith in them. I went to a few seminars with vets that were pushing for natural feeding to get away from the commercialised processed diets.

I did that with the Huskies as they cope with little if any of the commercial brands & continued it on with the Koolies. I feed a mix of meat, vegies, cereals & natural vit/min.

Several yrs ago I did hear of someone who worked at RSPCA Qld who was vegan and bought some vegan dog food, I presume from the US. It was very expensive and not viable for her to continue to import it though.

The logical extension of veganism though is that, if a vegan cannot feed their animals on vegan food, then they ought not keep cats and dogs.

I agree Kooliemum about if vegans cannot feed their dogs meat products because they are vegans they should reconsider having pets. Could always ask them would they take away any essential food out of a herbivore diet?

A balanced diet is probably the best option. I don't tend to buy commercial food from the shelves at a supermarket. I actually cringe when I see family and friends feeding their dogs the tinned food products, especially pal eww.

I'm leaning strongly to being ok with veganism for dogs, although I wonder about palatability. And as I'm struggling with the idea of becoming one myself, it's something I've got to face for my animals.

If you want to feed your dogs or yourself a good balanced natural diet why would you even consider vegan? If it because of eating other animals - that is natural, vegans don't eat eggs or drink milk either so it is even more unbalanced. I can understand reducing intake because of allergies etc but otherwise you are just unbalancing and courting problems. Please get your dogs permission before subjecting him to the same diet.

I'm not a vegan but am on a strict diet for medical reasons (doesn't make me skinny though!), so I say any sort of restrictive diet needs to be thought out carefully not just for yourself but the ripple effect on friends and family and how supportive they may be for you.

I would like to see some support on how a vegan diet fares against a natural diet (raw food - meat and vegies) for dogs. Would you need to give calcium supplements or any other type of supplement with this diet? No bones to chew on? Do dogs need a certain amount of fat in their diet? How would you keep their protein needs up? Not beans!!! Clear the room! I'm just thinking out loud really, questions just popped into my head!

I just think everything has it's pro's & con's but I personally feel way too much thought goes into feeding animals & I have seen first hand the results of feeding processed feeds & tampering with dog diets.

I am one that thinks that animals, including us are designed internally to eat certain things, dogs & animals more primative than us therefore if they are designed to eat meat, removing meat regardless whether it's nutritional elements & replaced opens the door to unbalance in the digestive system as how can you replace meat breaking down & digesting over numerous days in the system & all of the internal bacterias, enzymes etc etc that go with it with something else? I think dry food fed alone is an equal evil. So many nutrients & that are obtained from meats which can be replaced with other foods but it doesn't replace the system breaking the meat down & I know no other food that takes a few days to break down.

I had it drummed into me as a vet nurse to feed what an animal is designed to eat...the seminars I went to as my boss was a natural feeding freak & when I saw the difference I 100% agreed.

ie. a horse - there are so many wizz bang nutritional feeds out there that do all of these amazing things BUT rarely, if any actually address a horse's need for longfibre & continued grazing. A horse can nutritionally be getting a complete balanced diet BUT what does that matter when it has ulcers from lack of grazing/roughage like they are designed to do. Colic & other ailments are all common problems due to taking horses away from what they are designed to eat, instead we are bombarded with all these extruded, easy digested & nutritional absorption feeds....that unless your horse is grazing or eating large amounts of hay could be riddled with ulcers & bacterial imbalances.

I see the same with dogs, they were created to eat meat, have a finely tuned system that processes meat & this comes into play for in the wild dogs as they don't eat daily, some dogs eat 1-2times a week in the wild because the meat they consume takes days to digest giving them the ability to go without meals, all the other tidbits they get like eggs, plants etc etc. help them form a balanced diet & they will seek out what they need from these sources.

Yet us humans go & give dogs these wizz bang foods 7days a week that digest quickly & can lead to all sorts of ailments....

I know with my sibes, some of my dogs that have been raised from pups on a natural diet in summer won't eat more than 3 meals a week, all of which are in great condition & not one has been to the vet with any ailment, the dogs that came to me raised on top US dry foods for $100+ a bag are all approaching 8yrs old now & won't see 10, many haven't seem 8 due to serious health problems & have so many problems it isn't funny. My 1st generation bred dogs raised naturally are still harness dogs at rising 10yrs old, the others retire at 6-7 some at 4-5 with joint issues or extreme aging....so I stick with what works. Most of the commercial fed dogs I see are grown too fast as pups into big strapping dogs, but by 5 they are half stuffed from joint issues, so I keep a more naturally grown dog that should still work & be healthy at 10+, not one of my main 12dogs has had any form of ailment & only go to a vet for routine stuff.

I don't mind people being vegans, but our systems have evolved so much more than dogs & I haven't met anyone that would feed vegan regardless how natural they are, will feed organic yes but not vegan & unless detailed studies are done & proven success with others over 10yrs, I wouldn't touch it with a stick.

Muzhoz you have put my mind to rest, I always felt guilty about not buying the top premium dry biscuits due to cost but thanks to your post my guilt has gone. People are amazed at what I feed the girls they say they are better fed than some people. I usually so well look at their coats and their teeth compared to other dogs they usually agree with that. My last dog Zorro had the most beautiful clean teeth at five and had several folk ask me do I brush his teeth. lol.

I think balanced is the word with all types of animals.

I've already said above that it's not an option for Wal. But the truth is there is so much superstition about regarding what dogs need. I'm open to the possibility that what they need is actually different from the general community view.

This'll be a longish post - it's from dog training site I've looked at in the past but it only has access by password and this came via email so I'm pasting it in. About vegetarian dog feeding in India. It's an interesting read anyway about another culture and how it influences their care of a dog.


Sonal Sharma From India Writes:
Hi! It's me again, the one with the dog getting onto the bed with
her four legs problem. Like I said we do not have a crate & we have
never used one.
Is it okay to keep her tied up with a chain to the bathroom door all
night? That way she won't disturb us by getting onto the bed.
Also we keep her tied in the a/c room all day from about
9:30 a.m to 6:00 p.m with an hour of relief during lunch when I go
home and break up her day. Please advise.
Also we are giving her people food, i.e rice with eggs & soya
balls (boiled in water) or bread with soya, eggs & cheese plus
minerals,vitamins & calcium tablets. Is soya ok for dogs? As
vegetarians that's the only other protein content food we have next
to eggs. Also we do give her milk with rice or bread sometimes.
Are these the right things for her age? We stopped dog food as it
is too expensive in India plus she doesn't really enjoy it either.
Sonal

DogProblems.com Dog Training Advisor Responds:
Even though you are vegetarians your dog is a carnivore and needs
meat. If preparing and serving meat bothers you, you'd be better off
feeding her a high grade kibble (go to Dog Food Analysis and choose
a 5-6 star-rated kibble) rather than a homemade diet.
Now as far as chaining her to the bathroom door goes, a short tether
that she cannot get tangled up in attached to a regular buckle collar
would be ok, but definitely not anything that allows her to do more
than stand, sit, liedown and turn around, and do not use it with any
training collar. You actually should not use the bathroom door either
but should attach the tether to a swivel bolt that's put into a wall
stud. But, a crate would be better.

Sonal Sharma Replies:
Thanks so much for your prompt response!
Actually in India we do not have trustworthy Dog food available.
Besides like I told you she does not enjoy it anymore & we cannot take
the risk of the dog food being harmful for her in any way. We will
surely go with giving her home cooked food. Unfortunately, meat
is a total NO -NO for me as we are strictly vegetarians and have
only eggs.
Would you please help by letting me know what would be a balanced
diet for her & enlist items under each component, for example:
Rice - carbohydrates
Egg - protiens
Soya-proteins
Calcium tablets
Minerals& Vitamins tablets, etc
Also, is boiled soya good for dogs. Is it ok?
Please Respond On This Query in detail as we want to give her the
best within our capabilities!
Thanks! Sonal

DogProblems.com Dog Training Advisor Responds:
If you have internet you could order her food over the internet?
Post costs would be expensive though.
She got bored with the dog food because you are giving her people
food and what dog in their right mind would the want to eat dog food?
I know almost any bean (expect string) is high in protien....

Sonal Sharma Replies:
Exactly as you said posts would be very expensive besides one of the
reasons we stopped dog food was that it was too expensive.
Please please let me have a recipe for a balanced meal innterms of
1 item from each category for each meal, carbohydrates, proteins,
vitamins, minerals,fats,etc.
Thanks for the advice on beans. I will add that to her meal.
She is on a 2 meal regime, lunch around 1 p.m and dinner around 9 p.m
Also please find out & let me know if soya is alright for dogs, We
like to give her a good quantity of it each day.
Since we started home food which has been around 2 weeks now her
stool(potty) has somehow not been right. It is in different colors
each time, green, blackish, yellowish, and quite loose, not too abd
but not right. In fact I am taking ehr to the vet tonight to have a
sample of her stool tested.
Awaiting a detailed reply. Sorry to be bothering you so often, but
I want the best for her, so... Thanks for all your support!:)
Sonal

DogProblems.com Dog Training Advisor Responds:
I am not a dog food nutritionist.
I cannot give you a break down as I feed dry food but do mix in such
things as eggs noodles and rice from time to time.
Part of owning a dog sometimes is the expense. If you can not feed a
more meat diat due to religion eating beliefs then I would strongly
sugguest sucking it up and feeding a dry expensive food.
Or looking on line for someone to contact that does dog nutrition
and can tailor a veg diat with high protin for your dog...

Another DogProblems.com Dog Training Advisor Weighs In:
It is a dry kibble dog food, but Dick van Patten makes a vegetarian
formula.
Site here.
Vegetarian Ingredients
Like DPT2 said, part of owning a dog is expense and stepping out of
comfort zones sometimes. Is even touching meat a no-no? I know beef
is probably out of the question, but there is also chicken, turkey,
lamb, venison and even pork. If possible, you can have separate
utensils and pans for cooking meat for the dogs so you won't have to
mix it with your food.
The reason soy really isn't the best protein source is because dogs,
while being omnivores, need a meat-based diet. Their bodies are
capable of digesting plant material, but not to the extent that we
do. That's why a lot of people give their dogs fish oil as a
supplement for dry skin and coat (example)...plant-based oils such
as flax and borage can work but they are not able to be broken down
as easily by the dog's digestive system.
In dog foods, you'll find some trends toward the removal of corn and
soy from a dog's diet, especially in the 5-6 star foods from the site
linked above. That's because corn and soy are merely cheap ways for a
dog food company to increase protein levels of the food while keeping
meat content at lower levels, which lowers price. And because corn and
soy aren't as easily digested, there's more waste...and if you look
closely at dog poop from someone fed a corn-based diet (such as Purina,
Pedigree, Science Diet or dollar-store brands), you'll find that the
corn meal was never digested and simply passed through with little to
no nutritional benefit to the dog.
The digestive system is simply more efficient at breaking down the
amino acids in animal-based proteins. I've read that if a dog has
severe sensitivities or allergies to animal proteins, only then should
the vegan diet be go-for-launch, but it's not something to which I
would jump immediately outright.
Cats, on the other hand, are strict carnivores...in other words, if
they don't have meat in their diet, they will suffer. Just adding
that to give you some perspective on the situation :)
I would see if there's a nutritionist either online or in your
community who would be willing to help you with a tailor-made diet
for your dog. Although we know enough about nutrition here to help
with some things, I don't know if anyone here is a nutritionist and
able to make a specific plan for your situation.

Sonal Sharma Replies:
Thanks a million for your detailed & insightful response!
Although meat is still a no-no, I would certainly look for someone
online who could suggest a balanced diet for her. Also if you do come
across someone I would be extremely happy if you could help with
contact details of the nutritionist.
Does it also mean that I should stop or reduce the soya content too?
Could that be the reason for improper poop? I'll add more of milk &
eggs in that case as far as protien content goes. Hope bread is an
okay food for dogs, because she loves it, with cheese/ boiled eggs.
Sonal

DogProblems.com Dog Training Advisor Responds:
If soy is the most protein-dense food you have, I would probably
stick with that. It is better than cutting it out...you have to get
protein to your dog somehow and if meat is not an option, I would
stick with soy.
Milk and dairy products can sometimes contribute to the loose stools.
Dogs and cats are generally lactose-intolerant, but a little bit of
cheese or yogurt in small amounts shouldn't hurt them. Eggs...
honestly don't know much about eggs and dog nutrition, but since the
white is pure amino acids, that should be a good food source.
Here is a good vegetarian dog food recipe, the result of a quick
Google search. Vegetarian Dog Food Recipe
Another site with some advice about important nutrients when feeding
vegetarian. Veg Pets
I found a company called Vegepet who supplies supplements and
nutrients to pets on a vegetarian diet, but the downside is that the
supply would constantly have to be replenished. The largest container
they sell "lasts for 4 months," and with a larger dog, it's definitely
not going to last you that long. Plus it's expensive...you can
probably feed your dog a quality kibble for that long at that same
price or less. (In fact, I did find dog food with no corn, wheat or
soy at my local grocery store at low prices. Talk about being duly
impressed!)
Let us know how the stool sample testing goes!

Sonal Sharma Replies:
OH MY GOD! You have no idea how very much it means to me to get this
kinda of long & detailed response from you, it's almost like she is
yours too. Thanks so so so so so so much!
Great! I feel much better now! And have taken down the rice porridge
recipe & will surely make it for her often enough! As for the
supplements, I 'll try to get them in India.
And will get the stool sample report tonight. Will surely let u know.
Please pray that it is nothing major!
Thanks for all your support!:) Sonal

Sonal Sharma Continues:
Hi I'm back. I just spoke to Sasha's vet & he found certain puss
cells in her stool sample. He said it is because of the new veg food
& that the undigested part comes out as puss cells at times. He said
it's nothing to worry about & has given a food booster powder to be
added in her food.
Please let me know if it is really ok that puss cells were found.
And also if you reccomend any other test to be conducted.
He is the best vet at the city I come from but this isn't really the
best city for pets in any case as it is not developed to a huge extent.
Thanks!

A third DogProblems.com Dog Training Advisor Weighs In:
Vegetarian Diets:
Dogs
Dogs need half as much protein as cats, and unlike cats, dogs can
benefit from and adjust to a vegetarian or vegan diet. Like humans,
dogs are omnivores, not carnivores, and they do not need meat to
survive. In fact, many dogs who previously were ill improved
significantly after switching to a vegetarian or vegan diet.
Vegetarian diets are well known for relieving arthritis, skin and
fur problems, and obesity. Speak to your veterinarian before removing
meat from your dog's diet. Your veterinarian might want to test your
dog's urine periodically because vegetarian diets tend to make the
urine more alkaline, which may cause urinary tract infections.
Make sure your dog is getting enough minerals and vitamins,
particularly B12. High-quality prepared vegetarian and vegan dog
foods are available. These foods have added the vitamins that may be
lacking as a result of the removal of meat. To help adjust your dog
to a vegetarian diet, mix the new food together with the food you
usually serve. Gradually change the proportions until the meat is
eliminated.
After switching dogs to a vegetarian diet, monitor them closely to
make sure their new diet agrees with them, especially if they are
still puppies. Watch for gastrointestinal problems, and note any
new health problems. If there are any changes in your dog's health,
be sure to take him to the vet.
If you intend to cook your dog a vegetarian diet, tofu, eggs, or
cottage cheese can be substituted for meat products. Puppies and dogs
who are overweight, elderly, or sick will have different nutritional
requirements. For more information about special needs diets or
home-cooked vegetarian diets, please read Dr. Pitcairn's Complete
Guide to Natural Health for Dogs and Cats, by Richard Pitcairn,
DVM, PhD, and Susan Pitcairn, St. Martins Press, 1995.
Don't ya just love our Team!
Sonal Sharma Replies:
Sure I do you bet I do! More than anyone else especially at this
moment! Thanks a million for all the support from your team!
I AM BLESSED TO HAVE YOU GUYS!
I will report back to you regarding her stool sample test tomorrow!
:)
Sonal


http://www.naturalbalanceinc.com/dogformul...tml#Ingredients

It is interesting isn't it. In so much of the world (like Asia) dogs don't get much meat at all because the ppl don't get much meat. And often the dogs aren't very healthy, but that is as likely due to the fact that they just don't eat enough, rather than they don't eat enough meat. Apparently when the first Chows came to the west they wouldn't eat what the ppl were trying to feed them, because they were used to eating mainly rice. Not sure whether they had been fed any meat at all.

I found an Australian producer of vegan foods for pets. I'm not going to change Wal to it, at least until I discuss if with his im vet (who we don't need to see until August) but I got a small pack to see if he'd eat it (wouldn't be much point asking her about it if he then wouldn't eat it). And he actually really likes it. It's very crunchy, so I can tell when he picks the bits of it out of his bowl first.

The cat food has synthetic taurene, which my vet isn't sure about.