I have in the past had some problems with nose color which was diagnosed as PEMPHIGUS FOLIACEUS BY A VERY GOOD VET.

I have over the past 18 months seen a lot of Koolie litters that had the same problem thatI had.

So I changed my breed plan to stamp out this problem and have just produced a litter that has been genetically modified by selective breeding.

the picture below is of a litter that was welped on the 25th of July 2008



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Jack @ Wilja Koolies

Hi Jack
So this is a deficient of the immune system and attacks a certain layer of the skin, the body doesn't recognise it and creates antibodies against it and results in pustules etc. Is that right? I know that some breeds out there are more prone to it than others due to their genetics. I think Akitas and Dobermans are two of the breeds. So to phase this out did you not breed the dogs with white around the eyes and nose, or did you test them? Just curious.

I am not a breeder myself, and don't think I would be I don't know enough about it all. One of the reasons I did choose the Koolie is that it is bred for it's temperment and abilities and not on their looks. I believe the more we find about genetic prone diseases the better.

By the way beautiful litter, I like the one at the front on the left hand side. I am partial to the reds whether they are merle or solid. As you can see in my avatar I have one red merle koolie.

Hi Ceejay

You are correct in that it seems to be an imune deficieny in the upper skin layers.

I have over the past few years been trying to find out what this was called and have now found a vet that named it as soon as he saw a dog of mine.

The dog with the original problem was purchased from a long standing breeder
and I suspect that I am not the only one to suffer the problem.

I have bred it out and will when a suitable dog is found kick it back another generation to ensure that the problem is indeed burried.

I now know how to avoid and fix the problem and have just posted my website back up to a different location with a link from a page I set up about genetics that describes the problems in detail.

my website is now at http://www.skymesh.net.au/~wilja/INDEX.htm

hope this helps publicise the problem so we can stamp it out.

Jack @ wilja Koolies

Hi Jack, at what age does it become evident? Do you know the means of inheritance? And what are the disadvantages to a dog in having the condition? (Sorry for the 20 questions :-)

Hi KoolieMum,

I will try to answer as best I can.

The original dog that has the problem had a normal black nose as a pup but had a thin pink line directly behind it that over 3 years widened forward with a photo of his nose now displayed on my website the dog is now aprox 4 years old and and is in some discomfort

A litter I bred with this dog had a pup thet had a blacknose but wide white on his nose that ran from the top of his head down to the black nose tip, this dog had a bad pimply type of rash on this white area that was causing so much discomfort that he was put down.

The link I have on my web site says that this condition starts at about 4 years of age but I can assure you that it varies in degree and can start much earlier.

I have seen a lot of litters of koolie pup's and koolies in the last 18 months and many have the same problem.

I believe that it is very widespread and could cause a serious risk to the breed.

I have bred it out of my dogs after disgarding many of my previous dogs to ensure that it couldn't happen again and have changed my breed plan to suit
I have had a bitch from victorian lines with the problem as well as a dog from N.S.W I also know of other breeders with the same problem.

I believe that this may also be related to deaf and blind pup's but that's only an observation I have made after seeing the results.

I further believe that we as breeders can't afford to produce pup's that don't live past 3 or 4 years when they should be living to 15 or so years old

hope this helps

Jack @ Wilja Koolies

Jack

Is this condition the same as having a pink merled nose at birth? Both my dogs had very pinky noses when young, a few years later it seems the black has grown over the pink so they have only traces of pink now (plus they have both darkened up merle wise as they have got older too). I thought the pink nose patches was part of the overall merle effect. One is part wall eyed, the other not. The Dam was full wall eyed, the sire not.

Hi shaunagh,

I believe that it could be and after discussing this with a lot of old time breeders Koolie Club and otherwise was told that only one of them had ever seen a dog with a white or pink nose. I think that this is a recent development in the breed.

Your vet should be able to tell you if it is or isn't or should be able to find out. It may only be a very mild case though.

I can tell you that when I had this problem the litters produced were the first I had ever seen with anything but black noses so get it checked out otherwise if you are going to breed with the dog be very carefull what you breed it with

General thoughts among lots of old time breeders is that this would be caused by to much line breeding without introducing new blood.

As I have said elsewhere in this forum if this isn't adressed it could destroy the breed.


Hope this helps

Jack @ wilja Koolies

The only thing I ever worried about the pink noses was sunburn, but as they have blackened up I haven't worried too much as I see lots of good dogs also have the pinky nose. Mine are from the Hunter and lots of real good Koolies up there have it. Should I look out for some kind of infection? Is it like a cancer or a melanoma with the symptoms?

l 'googled' the condition and found that many breeds suffer from this condition, not just Koolies. Its an autoimmune disorder more commonly seen in middle aged/older dogs. It is seen more commonly in akitas, Doberman pinschers, chows, dachshunds, Newfoundlands, bearded collies and schipperkes, but can be seen in other breeds. My mums old Lab had a condition like this. She suffered no ill effects from it and lived a healthy normal life until the age of 13. Here is one good site about it but there is plenty of info out there.Pemphigus Foliaceus

To All,

I have made mention in this forum that it effects many other breeds, does that mean that we should ignore it I would think not.

I believe that we are breeding working dogs that live outside and are usually tied up or penned up so that they don't start working stock when this isn't required.
I know that this condition varies between dog and dog but you know what the problem is, it may not show up in the dog until it is 4 or 5 years old.

The dog that started it here was bred before the condition was apparent, I was lucky I knew it was a problem in the pup's as some had severe problems
If the pup's hadn't shown a problem I would have been worse off in that I would have sold these pup's and the new owners would have a dog that although a very good worker would develop the problem later in life.

I think that if I had sold pup's with this condition and may inadvertantly have and these pup's were then bred from the problem would be compounded.

I think that the fact that this condition often shows up in adult dogs after they have been bred is the reason that it effects so many dogs.

I believe that by publisising the problem breeders and others can do their own research and then decide how they can best cope with this as doing nothing would only cause the problem to multiply in progeny.

If you own a Koolie as a pet and can keep it out of the sun you may be allright but most Koolies I sell end up on farms working for a living and it isn't pleasant to have to put a dog down before it reaches the ripe old age of 2 or 3.

Now that it has been publisised I hope people do their own research and try to supress this condition for the good of the breed.

Hoping all this makes sense

Jack @ Wilja Koolies

My misunderstanding.I don't think we're talking about the same thing. My dogs were born with pink patchy noses, like the roof of their mouth and paw pads, but have darkened up as they get older so there is hardly any pink on their noses now, not the other way around. I think it's just the merle effect in mine.

Hi shaunagh,

That's fine I am only trying to let others know that they need to keep an eye on this problem.

Pup's are often born with pink noses but one would expect them to darken to black by the age of 6 weeks. Some spots darken a little later but that is not what this is about.

If anyone has a dog that has either a pimply type rash on their snout or a scabby type of exzma on the black of the front of the snout no matter how small they should probably get it checked if they can find a vet that knows about this. this is normally the first sign of trouble usually put down to sunburn. It can however not be fixed with subscreen or ointment.



Jack @ Wilja Koolies

Jack, I totally agree with the idea of discussing *everything* about Koolies, breeder ethics etc. My concern though is that if we don't understand the genetics of the condition, then we don't know whether we have actually removed the gene from the population, even if we are actually producing atm dogs that aren't affected. And that means that in time the gene will become more widely distributed and affected dogs more numerous. I've got more time today than yesterday (when I was being yelled at to hurry up on the computer because someone else needed it :-) and will look up that link.

The experience of US Portugese Water Dog breeders makes me reluctant to think that we ought to cut particular families out of the gene pool - doing so will probably only bring to light in time that the families unaffected by the original problem also carry something nasty, possibly something nastier, and by then much of the genetic diversity that previously existed may be gone.

Hi KoolieMum

You metioned the removal of the faulty gene. I don't believe that this can be done in the short term and have put a very very very basic gene item in the gene heading.

I kept this so that I thought it would make sense to most readers without touching on atomic theory and valence shell electrons denoting the property of everything etc etc it is not strictly correct in what it says but should give most people an idea on how it works in the real world.

I don't think that this is the right place to go fully into genetics as it would become to complicated for most to understand.

And I haven't disgarded the lines I am presently using but breeding out some of the problems and introducing some new blood to ensure longevity.

I have disregarded a lot of dogs over the last 4 years but most because I found out after I purchased them that they were outsourced to other breeds, others 1 male from victorian lines because he grew to the size of a labrador and needed 1/2 an acre to turn in he was not suited to working at all.

I had another dog that I found out after I had bred from him that he was the product of father over daughter.

The breeder as I did at the time had no stock due to the drought and had leant some of his dogs to a mate who still had some work for them.

He says now that he shouldn't have let dogs and bitches go to the same place as he would not have bred then together but the damage was done.
This should be a lesson to everyone and it certainly was to me as the breeder didn't find out which dog had mated his bitch for a long time.

I have had to put 3 dogs down due to the aformentioned problem

and am now looking for a dark blue merle dog and have been unseccessfull in 18 months finding a suitable dog.

I now only have as far as I can tell pure Koolie blood with some very very long lines.

I was trying to set up several different lines so that other breeders wouldn't over time need to outsource but due to the problems mentioned above now have a line that has 2 of the longest lines in the country mixed with a third long line and as far as I can see no inbreeding.

It is very hard to find similair to what I have due to outsourcing a lot of litters now have problems such as I experienced some have more than half a litter of blind pup's and some are related to what I have others have pup's in the litter with stumpy tails and try to tell me that they are pure Koolie
and I have seen lots of litters and travelled thousands of miles in the last 18 months looking for another dog or bitch.

I am worried that the Koolie due to outsourcing and problems is breeding itself into oblivion and am desperately trying to avoid this happening.

Jack @ wilja Koolies

So what is the actual genetic data on this condition, I have not found any information yet as to whether it is a dominant gene in that it is always expressed when present or is recessive & silent meaning the dog carries it yet it is not a sufferer, but I am still looking.

So far the only tests I've found for it on my limited time to look is that it is tested for when present on an affected dog by investigating the pustule but is there any other means to test for it in terms of a carrier?

Hi mushoz,

The only answer I can give you is that it is both dominant and recessive,

Let me explain

When I bred the dog with the original problem I knew Ihad a problem in the pup's bred not the original dog.

I kept a questionable pup and saw it degenerate as it got older after displaying the problem from birth dominant I would say.

The dog which introduced the problem showed some degeneration some time later and is only now reaching crisis point in this case I would have to say recessive.

I am now onto the second generation of a trial to bury this problem and have a litter that except for 1 pup is absolutely fine but only time will tell me if this pup has the problem and if it does it means that the bitch it is bred from is a carrier of the gene without herself having a problem.

I have otherwise not been able to find to much data that says anything other than that these dogs shouldn't be bred from.

This is a bad problem in that you could easily breed from a dog and only find out years later that you have a problem. that is why I think it is so widespread and am trying to highlight it so people can recognise this when it occurs and hopefully nip it in the bud without doing to much more damage.


Hope this helps

I have to say Jack I really do not get the point on your website about breeding blue eyed dogs with no blindness. Are you referring to doubled merled dogs with associated wall eyes ie. sublaxed pupils or dogs with blue eyes in general.

I have bred blue eyed dogs for over 12yrs & not once had any issue with blindness from blue eyes in it's form as a genetic trait hence my confusion, it's only the double merle blindness re sublaxed/starburst pupils etc. in koolies & all merled breeds that is the issue, but genetic blue eyes & merle wall eyes are 2 different things, so can you explain please.

as far as I can read on the info I've looked at, how this disease is inherited is unknown & how it behaves is unknown....it is a genetic predisposition & not all that carry it are affected (correct me if I am wrong), it just makes me wonder after looking at info from many of the breeds that are primarily affected & getting basically told that it is extremely difficult to screen out other than not breeding affected dogs on, yet it will likely still be there as it is likely to be a silent trait that can be carried without any knowledge or outward signs then in the unknowingly wrong mating pop up it comes in it's full glory but even with careful breeding practices longterm breeders are still having it pop up. I emailed a few Akita breeders & all said that they can't be rid of it, they have controlled it but it still pops up.

I mean if you have a dog with these symptoms & get a vet to confirm it via tests on the affected dogs, it shouldn't be bred no...but I really struggle to see if it is a silent trait like I've been told by Akita breeders etc. it seems to be, how you can you say you don't have it or are rid of it unless a specific test is developed to test all dogs, which there isn't as research is still trying to figure out more about it.





I don't mean to be rude in anyway, I am just trying to get me head around it. I had a friend with a Koolie x with a sore behind it's nose that was diagnosed with tests as something else, not this problem, I'm trying to think of what it was...I'll catch up with her & ask, which her vet said was very common.

o.k found the condition I was referring to.

Discoid Lupus Erythematosus[u]
Discoid lupus (DLE) is a cutaneous form of lupus involving the face. It can vary from loss of pigmentation behind the nose on the hairless patch of skin & resulting in lesions which are also commonely distributed in a pattern similar to the mask on a wolf.
After pemphigus foliaceus, DLE is the second most common autoimmune skin disease in dogs.

It is most commonly seen as this;


So it is quite similar & any dogs with such symptoms of either should be tested by a vet as DLE is also thought to be genetically carried.

Jack, have any of your affected dogs seen a veterinary dermatologist and had biopsies for confirmation of diagnosis?

Hi KoolieMum,

The short answer is no

The vets I used to have just didn't know what this was about and kept telling me to apply sunscreen.

2 of the affected dogs became so bad that I had them put down because it became so painful that they were suffering.

I was then told about this vet that was heavily into genetics and went to see him with the dog that is displayed on my web site, He diagnosed it as soon as he saw the dog and instantly went and got several books that described in detail what the condition was.

My previous vets had no idea.

I had a long discussion with him and told him what I was doing to rid my lines of the problem and he said that that would only work if I stayed on top of it.

He was under the impression as I am that it is carried genetically and needed to be surpressed for some time to rid the line of the problem. I am now into the second generation and will only in time know what the results will be over several generations.

I didn't for some time know what this was called but knew it was a problem
I tried to inform people of this but no one believed it until I had a name for it.

I don't need anyone to tell me that it is a problem as you won't if you have a dog suffering the condition.

Hope this explains what you were after.

I have told the Koolie club and am hopefull that the geneticists may be able to shed more light on the issue.

Jack @ Wilja Koolies

Sorry to keep asking questions, but like you say, it's an important issue that we should try to learn as much as we can about. Have any of the affected dogs been treated with cortisone? If so, how have they responded?

Hi KoolieMum

Once I had found a vet that knew what the condition was I think the dog was too advanced and treatment would have been to late. I tried several creams and found them to be of no or little use.

That is one reason I am putting this on the forum so that anyone else that has
the condition can seek help earlier and can go armed with a name that I didn't have.

I am personally more worried about any progeny that may go out before the condition is diagnosed thus spreading the condition. All information I have read says that these dogs shouldn't be bred from but it is hard when it may not show up until the dog is 4 or 5 years old

i found this treatment for the problem i hope it will help your dogs jack
http://www.emphitin.com/about.htm?
just copy and paste this address into your search bar

OH MY, MY, MY.
Jack your personal website sends a very confusing message to your readers and one I am afraid which is very misinforming.
Geneticist have discovered that the blind and deafness in the Koolie breed is directly related to the merle gene.
Article; http://www.australian-koolies.info/Trainin...f%20Koolies.htm

http://www.genmarkag.com/download/Factsheet_Merle_Gene.pdf
Quote from this Article;
Health Problems Associated with the Merle Allele
Both heterozygous merle (Mm) and homozygous double merle (MM) dogs may exhibit
auditory and ophthalmic abnormalities including mild to severe deafness, increased intraocular pressure, ametropia, microphthalmia and colobomas. The double merle genotype may also be associated with abnormalities of skeletal, cardiac and reproductive systems.
This also happens in other merle breeds.

Autoimmune issues are an animal issue not delegate to only the Koolie, I know you mention this in your earlier post.
What you may not know is that though your own Koolie may have received a diagnoses of PEMPHIGUS FOLIACEUS unless there is a biopsy to confirm this, it is only an educated guess.

Back to the geneticist, your Koolie/s with pustules and sores on their noses, most likely do suffer from an autoimmune issue, the problem is there are many, some more common than others like PEMPHIGUS FOLIACEUS and the one Mushoz mentioned but again without the proper diagnoses it is impossible to tell which one.

Autoimmune diseases of the skin http://www.canismajor.com/dog/autoimmn.html

As a group, autoimmune diseases of the skin are uncommon to rare in frequency. Diagnosis is often difficult, especially for the general practitioner who may see one or two cases during a career. Skin biopsy and immunofluorescent staining are generally required to diagnose one of these diseases, and the prognosis for recovery may vary. Our old friends the corticosteroids are the primary mode of therapy.

"Pemphigus complex" is a group of four autoimmune skin disorders characterized by "vesicles" and "bullae" (blisters), erosions, and ulcers. In "pemphigus vulgaris", common pemphigus, the lesions are usually found in the mouth and at mucocutaneous junctions, those borders of haired skin and mucosal tissues. Such areas include the eyelids, lips, nostrils, anus, and prepuce or vulva. There may also be skin lesions in the groin or axillae (armpits). The blisters are thin, fragile, and rupture easily. The skin lesions are described as red, weeping, ulcerated placques.

In contrast, the lesions of "pemphigus vegetans" are thick and irregular and proliferate into vegetative lesions marked by oozing and pustules. It is thought to be a more benign form of pemphigus vulgaris.
"Pemphigus foliaceous" is rarely found in the mouth or at mucocutaneous junctions. The blisters are only temporary; redness, crusting, scales, and hair loss are more common presenting signs. Pemphigus foliaceous usually begins on the face and ears and often spreads to the feet, footpads, and groin. Secondary skin infections are common, and fever, depression, and anorexia may occur in severe cases.

"Pemphigus erythematosis" looks clinically like foliaceous and is frequently found on the nose. Ultraviolet light aggravates this form of pemphigus and can lead to a misdiagnosis of nasal solar dermatitis (Collie nose). It is considered a benign form of pemphigus foliaceous. The term "bullous pemphigoid" sounds a lot like "pemphigus," and clinically this disease resembles that group of diseases. The same type of vesicles and ulcers may be found in the mouth, at mucocutaneous junctions, and in the axillae and groin. Differentiation is possible only through biopsy. Evaluation of the vesicles is critical to the diagnosis, and because they rupture so soon after formation, a dog must often be hospitalized and examined every two hours until the biopsies can be taken.

"Discoid lupus erythematosis" is thought to be a benign form of systemic lupus (to be discussed next month) and is an autoimmune dermatitis of the face. It is most common in Collies and Shelties; more than 60 percent of affected dogs are female. The lesion is often described as a "butterfly pattern" over the bridge of the nose and must be differentiated from nasal solar dermatitis and pemphigus erythematosis.

Finally, Vogt-Koyanagi-Harada-like syndrome (VKH) is an extremely rare syndrome, possibly of autoimmune origin, leading to depigmentation and a concurrent eye disease. The black pigments of the nose, lips, eyelids, footpads, and anus fade to pink or white, and there is an acute uveitis (inflammation of the eyes) Early treatment may prevent blindness, but the pigment loss is usually permanent. As you can see by the above descriptions, many autoimmune diseases are similar in appearance. Except for discoid lupus, there is no breed, sex, or age predilection for these problems.
As in other autoimmune diseases previously discussed, the primary goal of therapy is to suppress the body's immune response with large doses of systemic glucorticoids. More potent drugs like Cytoxan or Imuran are used if steroids fail. Gold therapy has been advocated for the pemphigus group or pemphigoid. In cases where nasal depigmentation has occurred, tattooing the affected area helps prevent the sunburn and squamous cell carcinoma that may follow.
The prognosis for discoid lupus is usually good, but it is variable in the other diseases. Many dogs with VKH are euthanized due to blindness. Breeding affected dogs is not recommended. Currently, little information exists on the heritability of autoimmune skin diseases.

The Koolie pictured below is a rescue, and after a biopsy it was found he had not sunburn but Lupus, (Discoid lupus erythematosis) you will have read about it in the above article;
Though it may look nasty there is nothing detrimental with this condition, it certainly doesn’t warrant dying from and can be easily cared for by the application of a cream and a few extra vitamins in his diet, it is a lifetime commitment to the dogs care, but the dog will have no further issue and will live to a ripe old age and be able to do all things the average dog can do, this includes work. ( Yes he is desex)
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Jack you mention in your earlier post that this nose problem is in other breeds, actually all animals carry the gene/s, like all humans carry the cancer gene, it only takes the right set of wrongs to fall into place to throw the switch for disaster, such as what you feel you have already experienced....

You also write on your web that you and I quote “Again I have bred this out of my dogs” this statement is totally incorrect and very misleading, I know you only want to inform others of this terrible situation that you have discovered in your Koolie’s and those you have bred, but without DNA screening to identify the gene/s responsible for the resulting nose problem it is impossible to just simple breed it out no matter how selective your breeding.

I have had some experience with genetically inherited diseases which have resulted in the deaths of some of my Koolie’s from one of my bloodlines at an early age, you may have even read about it here on the forum, I of course refer to Junior renal failure, where the animal dies before nine months old due to renal failure.
The gene must be present in both parents for it to effect the offspring, together they will produce, affected (who live shortly) carriers who are not affect and clears who do not carry the gene.
There is at present no screening for the gene which causes JRF but DNA which we have submitted to Genetics Australia has helped to put the problem on the table and tests are now being run to discover a screening test, this would never have been made possible is we and others from other breeds did not submit their DNA, Renal Failure is suffered by every species on the planet including humans.

So saying you have bred it out needs to be changed to you are attempting to control it, then you need to submit the DNA of the affect Koolie’s in your care, clearly marked for the disease, so they can assist in creating a collection by which the genetics team can with time hopefully discover a screening test to identify the gene/s and then armed with this information all breeders can breed (if they have them) carriers to clear thus reducing the number of carriers and enlarging the number of healthy clears and who knows over time maybe even eradicate the problem all together.
And by submitting your affected Koolie’s DNA you are actively working towards the improved health of the breed, which is what this is all about.

But it is not as simple as finding a gene and snuffing it out or snuffing out a bloodline, because everything is connected and works together, recessive genes, dominant genes, bad or good depending on the dosage, all work together, by no written laws or set designs, randomly for the most, creating the diversity which is life, the complete package.

We do what we can, but sometime we get too close to playing god and need to step back and possibly revaluate what we are truly trying to achieve.

Last word from me and I hope you haven’t felt I have been rude or aggressive in this post, I have only written the facts not my opinions or assumptions.

Genetics has also discovered that what goes into the original mix stays there, so if a Smithfield, collie, kelpie, border or heeler was used then there it will stay, it may have its influence minimised by the continued exclusion of that breed in all future breeding but it has never gone and will surface again, when all the pieces fall into place, like producing stumpy tailed puppies from fifth generations Koolie to Koolie mating.(isn’t it wonderful we breed for the complete working dog and not for looks)

At this point of time for anyone to claim they have pure Koolie’s may be making a very misleading and terribly incorrect statement especially without any proof of genetic backing.

According to the canine control of Australia
A purebred status is award to a breed which has been duly recognised but the state or country canine body in control in the country of the breeds origin.

The use of the word pure breed just opens a can of worms and invites arguments, it’s just simpler to not go there. (no I’m not saying the breed is not pure), just that it hasn’t been officially recognised as pure or genetically and for that matter by record

At best we can state we breed multiple generation Koolie to Koolie litters, I’m sorry if your disappointed Jack, that is not my intention.
People have the right to the truth and you have a genetic problem in your Koolie’s which you want to share with everyone so as to warn them and that is good, but we must present the facts.
And that is what, together we are both trying to do.

This post has raised some wonderful points and has provided such good information that we are publishing parts of it in the next newsletter to reach all our members.
So that should make you happy Jack, I won’t print your name or Kennel prefix unless you give us written permission.

I know this was a lengthy post but I hope it helps all readers, and I'm happy for any of you to add or detract if you feel it strengthens the information.

Thanks royalla,

I wish id have known what the problem was called 3 years ago and I would have tried it.

I don't need it now as the affected dogs that had the condition except the original dog have since because of the condition been put down.

The original dog is now so serious that I think he will be put down very soon and I will then have no more problems.

I sincerely hope now that others know of the problem this link may help them as I didn't for years know what I was dealing with.

So on behalf of all others that may come across this problem thank you.


Jack @ Wilja Koolies

Dear Tjukurpa,

I can only go by what I am told and if a vet tells me that my dog has a particular problem and pulls out several books on the condition that describes my dog to a tee I tend to believe his diagnosis.

I have said in a few places in this forum including a small peice in the genes section that genes can't be turned off and also that I wish to bury this problem a generation deeper down and make this gene weaker and better dominated by another.

I can tell you however you may disagree that when a dog is suffering so much pain that it is licking his nose and whimpering all day that I should let this dog suffer any longer.

The dog in question has been DNA tested and his genetics are held.

It is fine in hindsight to second guess what this condition may be but when I am told it is a certain condition by a person in the know I tend to believe it.

Either way the condition needs to be surpressed.

I know how to surpress this and have done all I can to bury it. That said I will for the sake of argument change my website slightly to accomadate but make no apology for highlighting this problem as I think that the more people who are aware of this problem the better.

As I have said before in this forum I am worried because this problem is covered in many places and all say that affected dogs shouldn't be bred from, this is to stop the spread of the problem and I can't see this being of any use if the dogs have been bred from before this problem is obvious.

I can tell you first hand that it is passed from generation to generation and that it varies in severity. it doesn't always take 4 or 5 years to show up.

I also stated that this litter was genetically corrected by selective breeding and stand by that.

I will be keeping a bitch from my present litter and am looking for a suitable dog to use on this bitch to bury this even further.

I would love to have a discussion on cellular level genetics but don't think that this is the place, I don't believe that there is a better way of dealing with this problem at the moment and probably won't be until we can malipulate the number of electrons in a valence shell around the nucleaus of an atom.


Jack @ Wilja Koolies.

Hi All
Due to the fact that we have had over 100 cows calve in the last 3 weeks and both had a huge dose of the most disgusting flu at the same time I have not been able to contribute to the forum or the Koolie club at all (lucky to be able to get out of the chair infact) so have been unable to follow up, until now, the information Jack has provided. I have now written to our Geneticist and a trusted adviser to the club who is a previous convenor of the Health and Genetics Committee for the ANKC asking for their input into this discussion. I hope to be able to report back soon.

We have been getting our Koolies from the same breeder for 20 years and this problem has never arisen. I guess when you know a reputable breeder you stick to them.

Sorry just a bit confused, not trying to get your nose out of joint.
I understand you when you say that many breeders recommend not breeding with an affected dog, who would?
And I can understand the possibility of this autoimmune problem being passed down or being possibly inherent.

What I can't understand is considering breeding a bitch from an affected bloodline without knowing if she is a carrier or a clear and no matter what male might be selected it would be impossible to know if he is a carrier or clear.

My concern is if she is a carrier and the male selection is a carrier there is the risk of breeding more carriers and affected pups.

There are many long time breeders registered with the Koolie club who have kept records of many generations of healthy Koolie's and they are very aware of the risks breeding brings.
And thankfully they have all been very supportive of new breeders.
Even if you could select a male from a bloodline that showed no influence of the autoimmune issues, wouldn't it be simpler to just desex your female and select from an established cleaner bloodline to start again.
At least this way you could insure you don't perpetuate the problem, which, if I have read your post correctly is what you want to do.

I seriously wish to understand and am not mocking your methods in anyway.
I know you didn't create this problem and may even feel that one or more bloodlines that you have could be responsible, you might possibly even hold certain breeders bloodlines responsible for what has happened to your Koolie's, I know again from experience that some new breeders not knowing any better will definitely look to blame the original breeders.

That's why this post is so important to clarify everything especially the unpredictably and uncontrollability of genes

To put it simply, you believe it is an inherited disease then why breed from an infected bloodline

Dea Tjukurpara,

I have said in many places in this forum that a gene can't be removed but can only be supressed so that it doesn't appear.

I don't blame anyone for this problem and have not mentioned any names in my posts.

I advised the registrar of the name of this problem some time ago and am happy to have the geneticists involved. I have also contacted the original breeder of the original dog and they are going to discuss this with their vet.


I can however say that because there is no background on this that I am trying to find how deep seated this problem is and how it is best dealt with.

You also said that these genes as well as cancer etc can be found in all dogs and it is only a question of trigering them, Quite possible.

In genetic terms I can tell you that a lot of problems in all sorts of animals as well as people are dealt with by the supression of a gene that is causing a problem.
It may be dealt with in my case allready but as I have said before I will be burying this problem even deeper.

If you read the latest entry I have placed in the genes section of this forum you will understand that all i'm trying to do is fix this problem and keep documentation to assist others should they also find they have this problem arise in the future.

My present litter don't seem to have any problems and don't show any of the signs normally associated with this problem.

I think that If we were to cull and not try to fix this problem that it may affect the diversity that everyone is alsways talking about.

I am confident that I can solve this problem and am doing all I can to come up with answers.

I am in the process of acquiring other dogs and have been looking for suitable puip's for 18 months now and have 1 pup being bred for me and will be finding others as well.

I will pass all relevant information to the Koolie club when I have finished.

Concerning the Pure Bred Versus Line Bred.

I don't wish to go into semantics but believe that if the Kennel Control people will issue a pedigree on six generations that any dog with 6 generations of lineage can also be considered pure bred.

Jack @ Wilja Koolies

But it can reappear without warning and without identifying the gene first how can you be sure all your hard effort is working.


Firstly you need to do a Biopsy to identify which autoimmune issue your Koolie suffers from, many autoimmune problems display similar symptom, as I supplied in an earlier post.


Again in order to be suppressed the gene must first be identified.


May I ask the age of the bitch from this litter you intend to use, if she is not over five how can you be positive that she is not effected, it would be good commonsense to assume she has at least a 50% chance of being a carrier.


Sorry but I have read no lab results which substantiate yours or your vets assumptions of what your Koolie is suffering from or has died for having, and I too want answers which are substantiated by reports and findings carried out under proper medical conditions, is it not possibly to have a biopsy done of your existing Koolie.
You say you have collected the DNA, has this been sent to Genetics Australia who are currently working on the Koolie, if not can I ask if the Koolie in Question has been micro-chipped so the results can be match to the correct animal if a result is forth coming.

I agree that culling serves no purpose as we learn nothing, but we equally learn nothing when only assumptions are made and the opportunity to gather information correctly is lost.
If you truly wish to understand this nose issue, and truly wish to fix it then have a biopsy done and follow the recommended procedures as stated in the links I supplied and then send your certified Veterinary collected information to Genetics Australia C/o George Sofrinidies who will be sure and pass it onto Dr. Steven Holloway who is heading up all autoimmune research in Australia.
Be sure to say your a Koolie member and state your membership number at least then it will be doing some good.
They may even be able to advise you, as they are in the know, as they have been kind enough to advise me.

I have moved this topic from the All Pets section to the more relevant Genetics section. All Pets is really for subjects other than Koolies, such as horses, guinea pigs etc.

I have had some feed back from our advisers, there is no known research on the mode of inheritance of Pemphigus Foliaceus. It is an Autoimune disease. If it was a dominant gene we would have been likely to see it more regularly in earlier generations. So it is likely to be recessive, which means it can be carried for many many generations until a carrier is bred to another carrier where it may be expressed. It is possible that it is a gene that must be triggered before it shows itself, meaning perhaps the dog must be exposed to particular stresses such as environmental conditions or events that trigger the gene, such as we have discussed before about epilepsy and anorexia. If so, it may lay dormant in many generations before the trigger is released with no problems suffered or exhibited in that time.
Our geneticist has passed my email onto Dr Holloway of Melbourne University who recently approached GTG to discuss the establishment of a autoimmune disease database with them. I indicated that we would be pleased to assist in any way we can. This would of course include collection of DNA of affected dogs, but diagnosis would need to be verfied by scientific means such as biopsy before we could submit samples for inclusion. Obviously the science is very new and facts are not known yet but as with the DNA work we are already doing we are able to be involved at the coal face. But the fact is it will only be the beginning of a very long road and no facts will be known for some time. Until then they do suggest not breeding with proven affected dogs to be sure, but also to be sure of what you are dealing with by scientific evidence.

Jack, you may be dissapointed that I and the club have not jumped on this but truthfully there has not been any mention by anyone else that they have had a problem, or anyone said they bought a dog off so and so and it had this problem. Certainly if anyone had previously reported multiple cases we would have been more aware of it. The club also needs to be 100% sure the problem is identified correctly and scientifically before making statements and decisions. Would it be possible to have an affected dog biopsied? I would be happy to coalate DNA samples and Biopsy reports to hand personally to Genetic Technologies for inclusion in a autoimunne database and further research.

Thanks Sil for the above information. The last thing we need is a mass panic in our Koolie community in regards to this disease especially as non of us have come across it in all our years of owning this special breed.

Hi Silhouette & Tjukurpa,

To Explain what I have been saying about a genetically corrected litter.

Firstly if both phenotypes I bred had the problem it would have appeared in all the progeny as the faulty gene would have been doubled and become dominant.

This did however not occur some of the litter were affected where others weren't.

This of course means that the 2 phenotypes that bred my problem dog both had to have this faulty gene as a recessive gene which at least in my dog's case doubled and became dominant but may not have affected all the pup's.

I did out of the first litter pick a pup that didn't have the problem and I am 99% sure won't develop the problem.
All the affected pup's were culled bar 1 which I kept to see what would happen.

Although this dog displayed a different Autoimune disease which was evident from early on and was put down because of the problem.

The original dog has not been bred from since I discovered the problem in the progeny and we don't have the bitch here either.

If the bitch I kept out of the litter had this gene at all it is recessive and is dominated by another dominate gene and due to the heterozygous mating between the Bitch and an unaffected dog has had the affected gene weakened so that the only way this would ever come to the fore would be if the pup's were mated to another dog that had this gene as well and even then would only be in some pup's.

I am going to my vet on saturday and will talk to him about taking a biopsy when time permits.

I have said before that I welcome the geneticists involvement in this matter and will send a detailed report with this biopsy and the dogs details and Microchip No etc to the registrar.

My problem is this I have seen other dogs with this problem and they have probably not found out what this problem is as I hadn't until recently.

I do however know that the dogs that produced my dog had a lot of pup's together and possibly with matings to other dogs that could all be carriers or affected, these dogs are widespread.

I now have details on what I think are the signs of this disease and that it can be inherited or passed from generation to generation, Having said that I must also state that if these matings were heterozygous then not all pup's would be affected.

I can also shed some light on changes that take place from genaration to generation.

Surely this can only help in finding solutions to this problem.

Being an engineer my self and having some knowledge of genetics I also want to find answers to this problem and have said so on this issue. I do however need time to organize this and write a detailed report to go with the biopsy.

So all I want to happen is that people are aware of this problem so that if they have a dog that display any of the symptoms described in this section of the forum they can get it checked out as I wasn't told anything else than that this was sunburn and to apply sunscreen which I didn't believe as the affected dog is placed in the shade.

Jack @ Wilja Koolies

Hi Jack

We appreciate you intentions are the best, but talk of this being the downfall of the breed and that the breed is riddled with the problem makes us very wary of creating a panic, when our knowledge of it's presence is very limited. Also the knowledge of it's mode of inheritence (if inherited) and its actual spread is so limited by experts let alone us we must be careful not to jump to conclusions and make assumptions that are wrong. As this could affect the breed for a very long time. We have to move carefully and not have a detrimental affect on dogs, lines or breeders who may very well have no problem.

I am NOT an expert or a geneticist, but a couple of things need to be pointed out on interpretation that may have caused confusion in this discussion.
Phenotype is the visual appearance of the dog, what we have been referring to is the Genotype - the genetic makeup of the dog. Dominant and recessive genes are different.
We seem to have a misunderstanding on how dominant genes act. Dominant genes only need one copy to be expressed and what you see is what you get, the gene can't be carried hidden. Recessive genes can be passed on hidden until bred to another dog carrying the gene and of the resultant offspring some will show the fault, some will carry it hidden and others may not have it at all. Advice to usis if it was dominant we would have seen it a long time ago in previous generations.

I don't know how you know the pup doesn't have the problem or won't develop it by just looking at it, without knowing it's genetic make up particularly if this condition may not kick in for 4 or 5 years. As I said for my part we can only make decisions on scientific evidence because of the way genes can be carried hidden and an equal chance the gene isn't present at all. Could you describe to us how you pick the pups that do or don't have it?

If the matings were heterozygous, yes not all would be affected but if it is dominant they would, this is the big problem...we don't know yet so cannot make assumptions.

When you speak to the vet, could you ask him what he thinks the likelyhood of such a condition being a gene that sits dormant until triggered by an event or an environmental event triggers it is?

We are all trying to understand this problem, but as said before if we are to present it to professional geneticists and Universities for inclusion in their studies and their help, we need to be quite sure of ourselves.

Dear Silhouette.

I have just returned from the vet's.

He has asked for the contact details for Dr Holloway and needs to know what type of biopsy to take and details of where to send it to.
Could you email them to me privately so I can pass this on.

I have had a long discussion with him this morning and he believes as I do that this condition must be genetic as it would Otherwise be more prevelant.

I have said before in a previous post that this litter could contain 1 suspect pup which he also confirmed when I presented this pup to him.

As far as heredity goes I would need to grow this pup to see if it does indeed have the same problem or not.

He agrees that what I have done to supress this gene was the right thing to do and that the other pup's showed no sign of this problem.

He also said that he sees many of these cases and believes that the condition is worse here than in Europe due to solar activity.

As far as picking a pup from a litter.

I as well as the vet believe that the condition only effects the head as far as we have both seen and then only effects white areas and doesn't seem to effect darker coloured areas.

The questionable pup I have now will be photographed and given to Dr Holloway as well as pictures of the bred dogs the selection process I have taken and my thoughts on this issue.

My selection process to supress this condition consisted of selecting a Bitch from the original litter that had a solid black head, she was then joined to a dark red merle from a new bloodline with again no white on his head.

The questional pup I now have may not have the problem but only time will tell. I am thinking of keeping this pup and growing it to confirm one way or the other whether it is passed from generation to generation or not.

I believe that if this proves through research to be genetic which I think it will that my earlier post would be correct and that a lot of dogs would at a minimum be carriers

This means that until a genetic test can be conducted that this condition can at best only be supressed.

The original dog that I have here has the worst degenerative case the vet has seen as his nose is gradually been consumed by this condition.

I will when I work out how to use the macro settings on my camera take some photo's that will display the problem at it's worse and a pup with what looks like the onset of the problem.

As I have said before that I can use a phenotye to decide if I can use this or not.

I will also do a report to Dr Holloway with details of what I have experienced and have done to supress this condition.

Hope that this explains all you require.

Please feel free to pass my email address on to Dr Holloway so that we may be able to expediate this matter.

It may be usefull to contact some people that have dogs related to my original dog to see if any of them also have this in some way anf then have biopsies conducted to see it it is indeed the case.

I don't for a second believe that my dog is the only dog that suffers this condition and neither does my vet.

Jack @ Wilja Koolies

Hi Jack

I will make enquiries as to what type of Biopsy would be required, but if this is to be a project undertake by the club for the benifit of the breed and it's members please forward reports to me so we can coalate and record all information submitted. At this stage they are discussing setting up this database and if it moves at the rate the DNA project is it will take some time. It is better if we retain copies of records of what is submitted so we can ask specific questions when requesting feedback. These people are working on so many different angles to DNA at one time it is like dropping information into a black hole.
Did you discuss with the vet the possiblity of it being a gene that lays dormant until triggered by some sort of stress or environmental event?
Also meant to ask if the dogs had the blistering break out on any other parts of the body? I have managed to read a few articles now and they describe it being present on the abdomen and other parts of the dog as well.

Hi Silhouette,

[/quote]Also meant to ask if the dogs had the blistering break out on any other parts of the body? I have managed to read a few articles now and they describe it being present on the abdomen and other parts of the dog as well.


I haven't seen it on any other part of a dog than the head but the vet has.

I can tell you that it manifests itself in different ways, the original dog has the black at the front of his snout being eaten away (photo on my web site).
A pup I kept to see what would happen had pastules on the white band that ran from his black nose to the top of his head but the black nose was not affected yet when he was put down due to pain.

The present pup is basically a black & white with the only sign that this may be a problem a pinkish white spot at the back of an otherwise black nose the rest of the top of this pu's snout is solid black.

The vet thinks as I do that it varies widely in severity and that it is sometimes but not always visible much earlier than 3 or 4 years.

2 different dogs I have had here displayed totally different symptoms and may be a variation of the same disease.

Jack @ Wilja Kolies

Hi,
I have Ruthie who has Canine discoid Lupus enythematosus or DLE. Ruthis 's started out as a bite from one of my dogs. Ruthie loves to sun bake and with the sore nose and the sun it turned to DLE. My vet gave me tablets for it, but I have found that vitiams and good diet and paw paw cream on the nose have helped greatly. It is a very slow prosess and you have to apply the cream two or three times a day. A lot of work but it is worth it when the nose starts to look alot better. Ruthie is not in any pain, but is a licker so that is why the cream goes no so many times a day, she lickes if off
Sometime it is something very simple, that can set off a chainreaction. dogs are always using their nose, so a scratch on the nose then in our hot summer it can become something else, no genetic in there at all just a bite on the nose and it then became DLE.
I have another dog and if one flea bits him he eats big section of his body, and it becomes a huge problem. Another dog can have hundred fleas and no effect.
Check you dogs for scratches on noses have some pawpaw cream and have shade for them in summer, it may be just that simple.
Trudy

Thanks for the post Ruthie's Mum. I was wondering whether certain factors could start it off, stress, damage to nose, even allergies. Paw paw cream, will keep that in mind never even thought of using it on the dogs.

I have been wondering whether it is the same disease that you see in bull terriers on their nose? If so most breeders of these dogs use sun screen to help deter/prevent the condition that affects them. But not sure whether it is DLE or not though.

And it can spread to other parts of the body but not sure how whether by neglecting the initial stages or just due to the dog.

Rushed note as I am supposed to be somewhere else NOW, but have just received some interesting information.

The biopsy required to diagnose this complaint is a normal Punch Biopsy.

Although both immune diseases this is a different disease to lupus.

Treatment can be very successful, using steroids and cortizone creams.

It is often triggered or exaserbated by environmental conditions or stress.

It is a dog world wide problem, not breed specific although koolies might have a tendency to it because of the skin colouring (tendency to pink skin).

There is no need to put the dog down as it is managable.


There was a club meeting on Sunday where this problem was discussed and the committee felt we were following the right path by encouraging/taking part in the immune disease database proposed by Melbourne University and that a scientific and factual course needs to be followed to successfully approach the problem from a breed specific angle.

Jack, I look forward to receiving your and your vets report and test results so we can get the ball rolling on this. Please consider a course of treatment for the dog you have there with the problem, both for the dogs sake and to continue the investigation by testing the ability of recommended treatments. Perhaps now you are on your new property there is something triggering this condition, maybe a grass or plant pollen or a residue of some kind???

Thinking about this over the last few days - if it's genetic (and it seems to be) then it's got to be polygenetic in origin, hasn't it? That would be the most likely explanation of the variation in severity of symptoms. And a further complicating factor for breeding it 'out'.

Hi Koolie Mum
Sorry but it doesn't have to be anything, nobody has done a scientific study on how it is transmitted. Making assumptions can take us up the completely wrong path and set back any chance of dealing with it for many years/generations. Our only advice regarding genetics is that IF it is genetic it is likely recessive, no one we have spoken to including vets and geneticists has suggested it is polygenetic or even that it is inherited. The strong point that was made though is like the lupus, it is manageable and that it is likely triggered by a stress, whether environmental or otherwise.

Hi Silhouette

A Punch Biopsy it will be as soon as I have time.

I will talk to the vet about treatment but from what he said last time it may be too far advanced.

The affected dog now has had more than 3/4 of the normally black area of his nose eaten away by this and I will not let this dog suffer too much pain.

I have tried all sorts of treatment to no avail and the vet also says that this is the worst case he has ever seen.

I will also furnish some photo's with my report so there will be a flow of information from the start through 3 generations.

I will never breed from this dog again. and will know in time if inheritance plays a part.

I wish I had known what the problem was much earlier and wish more vets were aware of such problems as this may have helped.

As stated before my vet sees many dogs with this complaint some Koolies, Other working dog breeds and non working dog breeds.

I don't think buying the property next door al well as the original property has anything to do with this as it was aproximately a year ago that it became a problem in the dog in question but was apparent in a litter produced using this dog earlier.

Jack @ Wilja Koolies

Does anyone know what happened with all this?

Despite multiple requests, we didn't receive any reports or biopsy for testing to confirm the diagnosis.Without these and a confirmed diagnosis by a veterinarian there was nothing we could submit to Melbourne University or follow through.

oh ok, thankyou, that was quite a read then no answer at the end lol

A pity it hasn't been followed through or confirmed. I mean by the OP.

It certainly hasn't been forgotten, as soon as anyone else feels they have a case or cases they will be asked to contribute a sample and once confirmed as 'the' problem we will submit it to Melbourne University. And Jack is still welcome to submit his, we just need scientific confirmation before we go the next step.