Well there has been a bit of controversy over in the UK about a program that the BBC aired called "Pedigree Dogs Exposed". About health genetics in pedigree show dogs. The BBC are also talking about maybe not airing the Crufts Show anymore either as a result of what this program exposed. I am seriously trying to get a copy. There has been lots of articles and opinions all over the Internet and I am having fun reading the different opinions.

But I did find an article from a blog, that shows some skulls. The blog is from a dude that works Jack Russell's and I like their requirements from their dogs at the end of the page.

So I thought I would post it for a bit of interest. Terrierman

that was very interesting read and i do agree with a lot of what this person was saying the show ring does kill working dogs just have a look at our kelpies there now are 2 different types the real ones (working kelpies) and the useless show kelpies.

Very interesting, I agree wholeheartedly and it is just why I really don't want to see the koolie in the show ring. To have a group of people who know nothing about our breed dictate to us what our dogs should be bred for is not appealing. For those who say that is not a threat I was told the other day by my sister-inlaw who is the secretary of the Wolfhound club that they were told they could now not register grey brindle dogs...because DogsNSW now have a new computer program that doesn't recognize the colour!!! They were prepared to change the breed standard before demanding the program be upgraded!

Sil, that just sounds ludicrous. And people of course follow the rules per say don't they. He he just trying to imagine their computer trying to keep up with the variety of colours with the Koolie. I am pleased to know that the koolies are not going this way at all into the show ring. Just trying to imagine our dogs in the show ring, they would be trying to herd up the other dogs.

My personal opinion show rings were made for the humans not for the dogs. I don't think dogs care one way or the other.

Awsome article, I would treasure the person who could draft me a standard like the one mentioned by the terrier group.
It would hold passages like Stamina to go a hundred miles in drought ridden plains and willingness to lay day thier lives for their families and the job.

Everyone should put in what they think a true standard of a koolie could hold, only those really knowing Koolies need reply.

Thanks for that Ceejay truely terrific.

The original shows here in Australia included utility trials to demostrate the working worth of the breed, then they strutted their dogs around to show of the form and profil.
That is how it should be today, judge not just the look but the ability for which it is bred.

There was a link about this show on DOL a little while ago. I had a look for the link but my time is limited atm so couldn't do a proper search. However the link went to a YouTube site where you could watch the show - 6 episodes around 10mins each. Sorry I can't find it! Very interesting viewing - lots of opinions from the purebred world about this show on DOL!

I think the youtube clips have been removed, not sure why.

Sil, did they really mean that the grey brindles would be unregisterable, or only that they could not be registered as such, but could be registered as, say, 'brindle' without specifying the actual colour?

I watched the program by youtube on Thursday night. I cried literally through the program. It is very confronting and worrying. Apparantly with the pugs they are so inbred that there is 50 that are totally unrelated in the whole of UK. Which would make them an endangered species. Breeders putting mothers over sons etc. And even with dogs that do have a genetic disorder and known for it, still win in the ring and still bred from. It makes me shudder. Does the Australian Canine Kennel Club here insist on health checks at all for breeds? Or is it up to the breeder?


Here is part 1 there is 6 to watch to get the whole program.
Pedigree dogs exposed part 1

But these things are almost inevitably the result of closing a gene pool. And I think (not having watched the program yet, can't really be sure of what they said) that the 'problem' with pugs is structural, more than due to inbreeding (although it is unlikely that you could make such a dramatic change in type as to develop the Pug head to the extent that it has been without inbreeding). TB horses are similarly inbred and for the most part, considering the enormous stresses put on them, pretty sound - although I guess in their case there is a counterbalance in the form of a strong performance standard. (After what happened to Eight Bells after the Kentucky Derby I read in an article that every horse in the race traced from Native Dancer, who was alive in the 50s). They must also have been very fortunate in the particular horse who was used - he seems not to have carried nasty recessives.

Hi Koolie Mum
No, the information appears to have been grey brindle not accepted/unregistrable. A normal brindle has a brown type base but at least in wolfies their main colouring is grey tones and can have a brindle coat pattern. The rediculousness (?) of this is they have a tiny gene pool and this ruling would make an imported Irish dog with excellent type and some of his offspring who have a lot to offer the breed unusable.
This and the point about the pug proves what damage fads can do to a breed. This more than anything has caused major health problems, because as in the GSD the fad of the day was to exagerate the rear leg set we now have those poor creatures with extreme displaysia and look like they are dragging themselves along the ground for no sound reason.

What a bizarre ruling about the Wolfhounds. I don't know much about that breed, but when I visualise one, it's grey brindle. I thought that was a really common colour/pattern. I guess they could take the approach that breeders of Dobes, Boxers etc have been doing for yrs - even if the cropped dogs they import aren't able to be shown they can still make an important contribution to the gene pool. I think they'd be really unwise to avoid using quality dogs just because they had that colour, at least in the short term. With Brindle being recessive, they can reasonably expect to produce at least some non-brindles in a litter that is kbr/kbr x KB/KB or KB/kbr (although if the non-brindle parent was fawn it might actually be kbr/kbr and e/e, and they might get all brindle pups).

Historically the main colour has been grey, from light to dark but they have had 2 of the most stunning looking creams which are beautiful. Brindle isn't something I like but the grey brindle is more subtle and somehow suites the regal wolfie. They are something sprawled out in front of the fireplace snoozing. But also out loping across the hills.

I am the same, I always thought grey brindle was very common in the wolfhound breed, they are a beautiful dog. One of my friends is planning to get one when the kids are grown will see what happens when she does. Humans are funny creatures, I think that is why I love my dogs so much they are so uncomplicated and what you see is what you get. People sometimes play a dangerous game when they start breeding.

i just watched that youtube and all i can say is someone needs to shoot that idiot bloke at the end and the R.S.P.C.A should step in and make these idiot breeders breed the dogs back to how they were when their standerds were first set sorry i can not bear to watch number 2 3 4 5 or 6 that is so sick what they have done to those poor dogs

I think I put up a reference a while back about a paper about CKCS in which a range of possibilities were considered to deal with their genetic issues (and there are soooo many, )? Where the statement was made that 'if animal welfare was the only concern' then certain colours or strains or breeds could perhaps be let die out.
http://thecavalierclub.co.uk/start.html

But these things (like this program - so much hype!) tend to really exasperate me - like the owner saying 'we weren't told about this condition' when it's only recently been identified in the breed, when it probably wasn't even identified in the breed when their dog was born. And the UK club at least is working really hard on the problem. But you'd have to be an absolute idiot to buy a Cavalier and not know that there was a high rate of health problems. Always someone (ignorantly) wanting to blame someone else for what goes wrong in their life.

And the implication (much as has been talked about with Rough Collies) that breeding for an abnormal shaped head is responsible for syringomyelia, when in Cavs the opposite ought to be the case - they are more inclined to hydrocephalus due to their large skull, and that does occur). When it's more likely to be a change in the actual brain.

And in the first section which is all I've seen so far, lots of opinions from people who really aren't qualified (or we don't know what their qualifications are - one of the ppl I recognised as a Crufts winning Beagle breeder, so he's pretty committed to showing). (ok, enough venting for now)

What I got from the program is basically it is up to the breeders themselves and their ethics in what their progeny will result to being like both in health and temperament. The guidelines set down by any Kennel Club is up to the breeder to follow and some obviously do not. And also the general public have a lot to do with it too, demand and supply basically. The more popular a breed is the more of a demand for them and some breeders will meet that demand hastily. I read the response from the Kennel Club and what they are doing to improve their standards and they are getting tough with some breed clubs. They have also implied if their standards are not met, legislation may result.

It is all very interesting, I don't have a thing against breeders or pedigrees. I know I couldn't do it as I don't have enough knowledge about genetics or practices that are involved and hats off to people that are doing the right breeding program. It just concerns me that their are breeders that don't follow a code of ethics regarding their breed and all it takes is a few to breed many.

The program was sensationalist I agree, but maybe it has made the public aware to ask questions about health and temperament to breeders and not just to concentrate on the way a dog looks and their history of champions bloodlines.

Well, I watched the whole lot and I was appalled. There are some great photos and skeletal comparisons to what breeding has done to the structure and conformation of lots of breeds in the last 100 years. There was a Crufts winning German Shepherd whose hindquarters were so low to the ground the animal could barely walk straight. It was pitiful compared to the much leggier taller animal of 100 yrs ago. Also in the UK the gene pool for pugs (who can barely breathe as it is, and remember is the closest dog breed to the wolf genetically) is only equivalent to 50 individuals which makes it a smaller gene pool than the giant Panda! Again, the change in skull structure just in the last century is grotesque. They give heeps of example of the overall wrongness of show breeding, and if you watch on you get to see the ignorance of the nutty breeders. They know what they're doing, but they don't care and want to keep doing it. Rhodesian Ridgebacks! The ridge is actually a form of spina bifida, and the breeders believe dogs with no ridge should be culled! Animals with a healthy spine culled and deformed animals the breed standard! Please! Only one in twent pups are born WITHOUT a ridge.It may be sensational to start with, but that is to get the publics attention, they don't go on about eugenics in 2-6. What ever happened to a good old dog bred for function or companionship!

As for King Charles Spaniels, I really ike them and nearly got one BC (before C/Koolies ha ha) and I had no clue about the neurological problems. I would rely on the breeder and experts to put me in the picture. I didn't know about the merle gene in Koolies until I got one. That's the truth.

Anyway, that's my two hundred cents worth. Lucky I'm not on DOL, eh?

The Ridgeback breeders is one of the clubs that the Kennel Club is targeting. Apparently they have told them to stop culling the animals that don't have the ridge, but will the club listen, that is the question? I don't know when the Kennel club has decided to tighten things up, as this program has been I think two years in the making. Do Kennel Clubs or Organisations have any "teeth" to combat breeders in general?

Yep some dogs breeds are on the endangered list. And basically I think some breeders don't seem to care or have their blinkers on hoping it will go away.

It will be interesting to see what will happen as it all develops and what changes if any will occur. I just hope that it sends ripples through the international dog community. What am I saying, I think it is happening already.

Oh and the RSPCA has pulled out of Crufts, I wonder how many more deals are going to crash.

This was in todays Sydney Morning Herald about Crufts and the British RSPCA. My Webpage
If the link doesn't work, copy and paste to your browser.

DOL has educated me a lot on how little knowledge about genetics many breeders have. It's horrifying. I definately agree with the program on that.

About the Ridgies, do you know in the UK/USA at least, not sure about here, in Dallies it's still normal practice to cull patched pups. Although the history of our breed in this regard is about as bad as anyone else's. Although thankfully changing.

Natural bobtails are also technically a neural tube defect, like the ridge, so increase the risk of some individuals with them having serious harm associated with them (in the case of the main gene responsible, all pups with 2 copies of the gene die very early in their development prior to birth due to having severe hind end abnormalities, not consistent even with life in utero - as I've said before, I'm pretty sure that the stumpy cattle dog must have another gene causing the brachyury, and it may have some different effects, but spina bifida is still much more common in them than the average dog population.)

Shaunagh - if you got a Cav, I'd say, lovely choice, they are soooo nice. But I think the first bit of research you did about them would educate you that they have an incredible rate of heart disease.

The are lovely little animals. I'm not realy into itty bitty fluffy type dogs, but the week after week champ(by a long way) at Jacksy's first agility was a King Carles Cavalier and she was RED HOT at it......and cute and nice too :)

We're lucky with Koolies in a a way, even though the history has been blighted but it was likely by honest ignorance and lack of genetic knowledge the reason. Now we know. It's all about MM Mm and mm....he he. Because Koolies are not common, and because most breeders seem to know each other or of each other at least there is a chance to get the right info out now.

Ok I'm going to keep this real short or I'll go right off, there are way to many idiot breeders, buyers & showies out there & the poor dogs suffer for it. Just glad none of you can hear what I'm really thinking, whew rude words in all directions . I love dogs way to much to show them, showed horses for a while & wouldn't follow the trend of stick legs & narrow chests so got out of it & did dressage instead. Time to stop or I'm going to say the rude words .

when i was breeding the cavies i did my own thing and went for a look that pleased me and also kept the cavies healthy some breeders were breeding their pigs faces way to short and were having pups born with breathing problems and hearth problems i did not get these problems and i was best breeder and exibitor for 3 yrs in a row for Q.L.D and was also tied with my friend Nell for 2 yrs she bred similar to me then my heart stuffed up and i had to give it away that's not bad for doing it my way and not following the trend

Onya Royalla exactly how all breeders should be, you & Nell deserved to have the best breeder & exibitor title's .

Hi All!!!!!
A lot of people on this site will not like what I will say, but I am not like most of you! I am a breeder and I show dogs as well.
My dogs are bred, at all times, with their particular purpose in mind, and shown in this way also. I use my breed standards the way they should be used in, as a "GUIDE" to find the correct balance, be they working or hunting hounds. A dog should be able to do what it is designed to do!!!!
There are a lot of shonky breeders out there, that only breed for money. A lot only breed for pomp and prestege, and a lot more breed for love of the breed. Don't lose sight of the fact that most x bred dogs, cavradoodles, maltoodles ect, are bred by people that don't show, but get BIG money for their pups.
Please don't confuse the lines between these people.
I think the article from "Terrierman" is very good, but please don't overreact to all you hear about bad breeders. Some should be shot on sight, but a lot more would give their lives for their dogs.
In America, in some of the states, their sight hounds can't get conformation titles (such as Show Champions), without getting lure coursing titles first.
In Australia, the Basenji, is regarded as one of the cleanest (Health) in the world. This is because the breeders care! and test!
In Queensland, German Shepherds have to be hip and elbow scored before their progeny can be registered with the CCC of Q.

Good for you. The program that started the discussion here is from the UK, not Australia, and you're right, you can't generalise. I guess what scares a lot of Koolie people is that the merle pattern on our breed can look very glamourous and appealing to the general public who are starting to find out about the breed. But we KNOW the danger of breeding merle to merle, which is a high incidence of deaf pups. The liklihood of unscrupulous operators getting in to breed only eye catching dogs, and forgetting the other features that makes the breed unique is high, especially for a novel breed. Not to mention the high incidence of pup culling which will be inevitable if people start breeding only for merle and blue eyes. Real Koolie people are for keeping the breed going as it is, and has it has been going along quietly all this time.

Thanks for your input Glendawn. Can you tell us what judges look for in shows? Do they concentrate on what the dog looks like, or does confirmation and temperament come into it at all?

I believe health testing is very important in any breeds as well as DNA testing to find genetic defects in certain lines. I know that a few make the rest look bad in the breeding circles and I do agree about the designer dogs, I cannot believe what the public will pay for one without knowing what their background is. What really worries me is the way certain breeds have changed in looks over the years, and it is just a gradual process.

My main concern is that when I was looking for a Border Collie I came across so many that looked lovely looking but were very snappy. So I searched for a dog where temperament and ability came first and looks second. I know there is breeders out there that do make sure that temperament in the dogs is important. I just don't want this to happen to our koolies where coat colour becomes more important then their wonderful nature.

Hi Ya Glendawn
Nice to hear from someone that lives close and hows little piper going for you, i agree if you own a hound then it should be able to hunt and the same with the herding breeds and so on but they should be temperment tested as well and nasty dogs should not be breed from unless it's breed was bred to guard and that's what it's doing but these dogs should have a test to show they are controlable by the owner if you get what i am meaning there, anyway a big Welcome and we will see you at the workshop

What other breed do you have glendawn? (and welcome).

Hello Everyone!
It is very nice to be welcomed back.
I can't speak for anyone else, but I have temperment at the very top of my list of priorities, then conformation. Other points are very important as well, but what is the point of having a great dog that you can't handle, or is a risk to everyone? Unfortunately, a lot of so called GUARD dogs, are mearly the product of some loud mouth's pride. In the RAAF, failed guard trained dogs are usually put down, as a partally trained dog can be a danger to an unsuspecting owner. (My brother in law was a dog handler in the RAAF for a lot of years.)
I believe a lot of judges in the show ring, do look for conformation and temperment. A sound back and well let down hocks are very desirable. Sound movement is a must in all breeds, or the dog couldn't do it's job. Did you know that if a dog were to even growl at a judge, it can be disquallified? This is a current situation, and most judges are very strict about it.
There is always the element where judges will only pick a certain colour, or type, or whatever suits his/her fancy! It isn't right, but it does happen.
I will satisfy your curiousity, about myself. LOL!
I have been a past breeder of Collie Rough (Lassie), and currently own 7 Basenjis, (of which 3 are between 15.5years to 12.5 years old. I don't kill my oldies), 5 Maremma Sheepdogs (Flock Guardians), 1 working Kelpie, and more recently, 1 Koolie pup. The Maremmas I have from necessity, the Basenjis out of love. I have been breeding and showing for 19 years, and have campained 9 Aust Champions. One of my Basenjis, Baccus, is on his way to becoming the first Black/White Basenji Grand Champion, in Australiasia. Black/white is a minority colour....
We have a small farm of 162 acres, and run goats and sheep. We also have a small herd of cattle. The country is very mountainous, so a good working dog is necessary. So in came the kelpie ( she'll learn what to do one day! LOL! LOL!), then the Koolie, Piper. My first koolie wasn't quite what I expected a Koolie to be, and Royalla was kind enough to give us one of her excellent babies in exchange, and Piper came to stay with us. She is cute and sweet tempered, and willing to learn, and the Maremmas like her also.A Big thank you to Royalla!!!!!
Catch you all soon, regards, Glendawn

Welcome to the forum Glendawn and I hope you enjoy it. I have Piper's brother Rylie.

You know Glendawn you will have to keep piper hidden from me or i just might sneak her back here lol, and she will be old enough to start a little bit of training at the end of this mth just perfect for my workshop lol, anyway you will have to pop over and bring piper with you so that she can say hello to Rylie her brother and so the club members can also get to see her in person and so you can also meet our club members it will proberly been a once of thing to have kerrie Far South and Jackie Far North both here at the same time.

I have to say Basenji's was one of the breeds that I had a real close look at. But several sites said that they were not for inexperienced owners and I thought I may not have what it takes to have one. What are their personalities like? I bet they are very smart dogs.

Thanks for the info on what judges expect and look for in the ring. I am pleased to hear that they do look for temperament, and their back and hocks.

You will have to post piccies of all your hounds, so we can ooh and aah over them.