Hi,

I am a cattle farmer from Finland. We breed Simmental beef cattle and original Finnish cattle in our farm. We have eight years old working kelpie. He was born in Finland, but he has registered in The Working Kelpie Council of Australia INC too. He is a good worker, dutiful and intensive and a good member of our family.
Why I prefer to koolie? My reasons are same as Sinikkas. One day last spring I wondered to Sinikka where can I find a really good working kelpie. Many kelpies here in Finland I have seen are too tiny for me, nervous and unsure of themselves. So we started to seek really good herding breed! At last Sinikka wrote me she has found us really good one. It was koolie! More I read about koolie more I getting sure! It`s just for me!

So, now I´m waiting for my own koolie puppy to come home!

With kindest regards,

Satu

Welcome Satu glad you made it to the Koolie forums

Welcome Another person from Finland how cool is that. You will love this breed. They have the most beautiful temperment and when they work at whatever discipline they give it their all. But we are all biased here. lol. Welcome again and enjoy the discussions we have, and any questions just ask and you will get plenty of replies.

Welcome to Finland again! So now Koolie are going to Finland for Sheep and monster Goats ;) and Cattle. Excellent choice, you will not be disapointed with the Koolie breed. Enjoy the forum, everyone is really nice and there is a lot of information here, which is freely given.

Hello and welcome Satu
You Tiger will fit his name he will never be too small and is very confident.
I have been taking more photos for you and Sinikka.
Sorry it is all taking so long to arrange transport, how is the weather over there.
I am concerned we will take too long and it will be getting too cold.
How long does your Autumn last does it get cold very early there.

They have been booked in for their Rabies shots, so it will only be one month holding time, then they will be on their way.

You will love it here on the forum, so many talks, so many interests, would love to see some photos of your home in Finland and your stock.

These days we´ve been enjoying sunny and chilly (+15 degrees) autummweather after rainy summer.
If it´s going to be like last winter, first, stable snow comes only for christmas and untill then it´s cold rain all the time. Satu lives in area where most of the winter is black, without snow at all! When it comes january,february, march, in my area there´s usually -5 to -25 degrees but every year winter gets shorter and shorter..climate changes and even it means that we have longer period for plants, it means other difficulties and challenges for farmers (wet fields, bad haye and grain, new bugs that can survive winter).
So I think that there´s no worry of our winter anymore:)
If you think of Giant Scnauzers, we take them "naked" twice a year and second time always takes place in the middle of winter, and it still does not matter, I´m sure koolie can also survive:)
Am I right that usually your farmdogs live mostly outdoors (of course they have doghouses ect.)? How are your weather changing during year? What about temperatures between day/night?

How we can add photos in this forum?

Sinikka

How fantastic koolies are going to Finland! There must be a European invasion taking place! I hope your dog meets and exceeds all your expections. Enjoy the forum and I hope we get to see lots of photos of your koolie (and kelpie) in Finland! (Somebody smart will tell you how to add them) Do you use booties on your dog's feet during the winter to stop the pads cracking in the snow?

After working hard all day with the stock all Koolies in Australia sleep outside in the cold, in the heat, and chained up to electric fences so they don't fall asleep when they should be guarding. Except mine................

WHERE DID I GO WRONG? Waaaaaaaaaaaaa!

Many thanks to all for your welcomes!

You don´t need to be worry. I`m used to our winter and I don´t take the puppy out too long at a time. So we learn many important things ( come here, lay down, wait, sit, easy…) inside the house during winter and when weather gets warmer we start to work… First with chicken, I think…
In winter we visit in cow-house too, of course! There we learn what means “that´s enough” . ;)

No, dogs don´t need any booties on their feet. Sometimes I grease their pads if it`s necessary. But only if… not even every winter. They are used to cold snow step by step.

Dogs really enjoy themselves when it´s snowing first time in the winter! They run and roll about. It´s very funny to see! ;) I try to remember take a photo to you!

Nice photo! ;) My dog don´t have jacket... It´s so much warmer here in Finland than there in Australia (hihi)!

Satu

Hi,

Here http://s209.photobucket.com/albums/bb150/Astuska/?start=20 you can see (I hope) some animals from our farm...

There is a photo where Elmo (our wk) is jumping in front the door of cow-house. He do this every time we go to work! He loves his job, I think...

Satu

Hi and welcome sorry i am always late with the welcome, i have working koolie's and most of them sleep outside, the girls play it in turn to sleep inside the house only two each night apart from the pups they stay outside until they have better control of their bladders lol. koolies are great little workers, i have some 4 mth old pups here that helped me catch some lambs in the open paddock the other day little Shandy, Clay and Chance held the sheep in the corner for me and i have one very mean sheep that is always trying to attack the dogs well she got little Shandy and really rubbed her into the ground but Shandy just rolled away them came back at her even harder, not bad at all for a pup so young most pups would run back to the house licking their wounds, and don't start working until 6 mths but not those 3 they are going to be top little workers my other pups which are a little older have not started working yet but are starting to watch the sheep more now so it won't be long before they also will join in. i have the sheep only for the dogs to start on then they move onto cattle.

Welcome, I'm sure your Koolie will delight you every day.

Hi there, I'm Penny,
I just got back from visiting TJukurpa, and saw the two babies Tiger and Muffy who are going to Finland. You guys are going to love them. They are both very nice puppies. I know how impatient you must be feeling! I was just counting the days before my baby flew over to me from Tjukurpa :-)

I looked at the photos of the animals from your farm, and I love the chickens, you have some very eyecatching birds there :-) the wee fluffy chicks are so cute.

This is Dice shortly after I got him.

Couple days ago we had a Kelpie-puppy visiting our farm and she was captured by the stock, I guess her age was 12 weeks. I was trying to figure out what size Muffy and Tiger are going to be when we meet thme on the airport, how they react when we arrive home ect. Is this puppy from Muffy´s or Tiger´s litter?

Sinikka

Hi,

Thanks again for your welcomes! Dice is so cute!!!

Can someone compare kelpie and koolie? Are there any obvious differences between them?

And the other thing... I saw somewhere the picture, first page of your site, I think. There was a koolie with the cattle. The cow in the left corner of the picture is just like a cow of our finnish cattle! Now I´m wondering what that cattle may be... Can someone tell me that...?

Satu

Hi if you mean by first page with the changing pic's is it a red merle trotting behind the jersey cattle we have a lot of different kinds of cattle over here, my dogs work brummen beef cattle that don't see people or dogs for most of the year and only when they have to be wormed or treated for something so they are wild cattle and very hard on your dogs and can kill your dogs if they don't watch the stock they are working and read them right. the last time i took Quin and Summa out on cattle Quin took a hard kick both legs one in the jaw and one in his ribs and i think he may have a couple of craked ribs out of it as he is still a little tender in that spot.

Hi,

I have seen so much interesting things in these pages. So I didn´t remember where was just that cow... Now I found it again.;) The cow was in picture of Koolie Calender. And I mean just that cow in a left side of picture.

It´s very dangerous to dog to work with cattle sometimes and dog really must read the cattle. Our simmental-cattle is guite peaceful except calving time. The original finnish cattle is more temperamental but they are used to dog too. My Elmo has got some kicks but not bad accidents. I believe it´s hard work to do with wild cattle! How is your Quin now?

Satu

With the Kelpie compared to the Koolie question, I have a Koolie and a Kelpie x. I can tell you a bit about their different traits but I have only worked them once with sheep and there was a difference.

Every day things, Ceejay my Koolie is persistant at things and doesn't give up, if she cannot do something one way she sits back and works around another way. Both breeds have the ability to switch off when it is not work or play time. Ceejay has a lot more stamina and is very switched on. For example I was dead tired after work yesterday fell asleep at 6.30pm I woke up to Ceejay licking my hand at 9.00pm reminding me of the fact that they haven't been fed. She also gets me out of bed if I turn over and fall back asleep after the alarm has gone off. Work wise, only the once, she was calm, steady and quiet. Always bought the sheep back to me and if it didn't work one way she tried another. Oh and very affectionate. She also rounds the chooks up and brings them to me without me asking. Obedience training she picks up things quickly as well as trick training. She is a very smart and willing dog.

With Izzy my Kelpie x, she has come to me second hand so there has been issues. But she is a good dog, very loyal. She has speed and power, and gives the eye to the chooks. She heads up rather than rounds them. She has bark and the one time I had her with sheep, she was fine once she figured out that "Oh my gawd I can move them" She tended to get to the front and bark if they were going the wrong way. Temperament very loyal and loveable. Her obedience is good but I don't use my voice at all she responds better in a calm way (again I think is to do with the fact she has come with baggage). She also loves trick training and picks up things differently to Ceejay.

So essentially Ceejay is calm, persistant and thinks on her feet, Izzy uses more force and eye. And they compliment each other so well, best of mates and both females. Ceejay is the boss, but does it in a non aggressive way which I think is why it works so well. And many, many years into the future
we will be definately be getting another Koolie and I have found a breeder that gives out their working kelpies as pets, matches the temperment of the pup to the future owner. My partner loves Kelpies.

As I stated I can only use examples comparing my two girls. The cross in Izzy is Cattle dog, but there isn't a lot of that breed in there. But I also like Cattle dogs, I am a working dog lover. I believe you get a lot more interaction in these breeds than others but that is only my opinion.

Quin is fine, his ribs will heal with a little time off so no chasing cows or sheep for Quin for a couple more weeks yet.

Hi Sinikka,
Dice isn't from Muffy or Tiger's litter, he is from Indy and Rex's litter. he just turned 8 months old yesterday. he was about 14 weeks or thereabouts in the photo. He was very cute. Now he's very handsome :-)

This is a more recent photo of him.

Wau, really handsome:)
Yesterday I visited Finnish HerdingClub-trials and just thought how in earth you can measure dogs working abilities by winning or loosing in competitions:)
It´s pure obedience, I couldn´t catch any moments where dogs really can think by themselves or use their own thinking...and if they met situation where they should let solve problems, they were told lie down in the wrong place (and still they didn´t obey).This remined me why I don´t like traditional herding-competitions and why I so much respect normal work in the farm where dogs really enjoy their abilities!
What kind of trial you have for koolies? How you train them? Do you have clinics/training camps ect.?

Sinikka

Hi kuttukuu
We have workshops to start the dogs of but if you live away from the bigger towns like i do then you just start them with the knowledge have that you have and hope the hell you are going it right, i have only been to 4 workshops so i just do my best to get it right. We do have trails here in Australia but not many near me so i have just trained my dogs for the work around the farm as i have never seen a real trail yet but i am hoping to get to see one soon, as i would love to do trialing.

Hello I didn't fall off the face of the earth just been very busy.
I am discovering all that's involved in preparing and sending Koolie's to Finland, very involved but love learning it all.

The differences many Koolie owners find between their breed and other working breeds is the Koolie’s willingness, they are quick studies and learn what their human partners want and then provide it almost without any training, some have said it's is like they read your mind, when in fact they read your body language, the more we understand the messages our bodies are sending them the faster they learn.

To a Koolie everything is a game, so teaching them through their play drive delivers the best results.

I heard a grazier say the difference between the Koolie and Kelpie was a Koolie is a single shot rifle, reliable and accurate while the kelpie was a high speed power rifle very fast and deadly to control over long distances.
In general, not all.

Simply the Koolie will stop when you stop and is happy to stay with you and doesn't need ten thousand stock to keep them happy, sane, or in control.

Also the Koolie is an upright silent worker, and normally will not crouch or slink around the stock and they have little or no eye, they have a very direct cast straight at the group, hit the flank to get them moving and then around behind to keep them going.

They can be taught to do a Collie's wide cast but that's mostly for trials, farmers just want the work done cleanly and quickly so aren't too particular.

Regarding training the Koolie Club set up training classes and weekend workshop in Victoria, NSW and Qld and hope to launch one in S.A later this year, our training is for practical use on the farm but the same techniques can be used for those who wish to trial.

In Australia we hold many types of trials to suit all peoples interests and levels of experience.

Many pet owners who have traditionally done obedience have moved into herding but this is mostly all control and very little instinct.
Then there is three sheep, not many Koolie do this as they have little or no eye.
Then Yards trials and my favourite Utility trials, for me Utility trials are the only trials which emulate the real work done on the properties, you have your paddock work, with the cast(go out to the stock), grip/hold or lift,(Gather their stock and allow them to settle) draw (bring the stock to you) then the yard work of penning,(driving the stock into the yards) race,(filling the race, backing,(jumping on the sheep's back) drafting(the handler cutting out selected stock from the group while in the race) and clearing(bringing the stock out of the pen into the field again.
And to finish off, more paddock work where the dog must put the stock through gates, over bridges, though chutes and finally penning or loading them on the truck all in a time allotted by the judge.

Utility stock trials are excellent to watch and are a real test of the dogs instinct, stamina and ability to problem solve and get the job done in the least amount of time.

This is what we are working towards competing in next year. fingers crossed

Hi,

Nice to hear all this about koolies!!! It sounds great!!!

Satu

Hi,

Tiger and Muffy are home in Finland!!!
They came yesterday midnight to Helsinki and we were home with Tiger today at 4 am.

Satu

Greetings from Muffy too, since she came to Finland her tale hasn´t stopped:)
She´s trying to get a picture of what´s happening in this new home, her best friend is Giant Schnauzer Koda and her favourite "herd" nowadays are our chicken and roosters- and she looks surprised when I´m giving her feedback of it:)
She´s really active, well-handeled youngster, seems to be fast and well balanced while moving (not like puppies usually are in this age), has courage and if something is new, she stays still and watches and thinks first carefully but not runs away.
We´re very pleased of her and every day at work observe her actions to see when she figures out that herding is her "thing":)Now she eats lots of sheeps shit and enjoy teasing our other workingdogs:)

Sinikka

So pleased to hear that Muffy has settled in her new home. Keep us posted on how she is progressing. They are a good breed but I am biased of course. They are known to be able to think on their paws. Hope you get as much enjoyment as I do out of my own.

Hi,

We have had great time with Tiger! He is just so lovely you have told me!

There you can see some photos and I will take more later...

http://s359.photobucket.com/albums/oo34/satka_photos/

Satu

Hello again,

Greeting from Tiger!

We started to "work" with chicken on sunday. There is two photos in my photopucket. Unfortynately it was a cloudy and very dark day and photos are not good at all...

http://s359.photobucket.com/albums/oo34/satka_photos/

Satu

Cloudy or not, you can still see how gorgeous he looks. He looks like a really calm, sensible pup - is that what you're finding? And he looks beautifully structured, too.

YES, YES!!!

He is even more I have ever dreamed!

Tiger is very much like my wk. Even more than any other kelpies I have seen here in Finland!
I am really pleased with him!

Satu

And his patterning is pretty spectacular too.

I agree he looks like he is going well for you and he has very nice makings a real pretty boy

Was thinking about this. Are most of the Kelpies in Finland dogs that actually work or are bred to be able to work? In this country, among ppl with an interest in training and working dogs you often hear ppl commenting on the divergence between working/trialling and show lines of Kelpie. I guess it's inevitable, considering that consistency of physical type is a goal of the show breeder, much more than the working dog breeder, but I think it's a pity they didn't pick a physical type to favour that was a bit more like the working dogs (ie, had legs and athleticism).

Kelpies here are divided in two - show dogs and working dogs. But almost all working kelpie breeders favour too small and too activity type. Ten years ago we still had large enough, peaceful and strong kelpies. These dogs may not be good for trials but to work with cattle...It´s just that I like...
But nowadays trilas seems to be the most important thing... Although the kelpies can never do well the trials with border collies.
I think kelpie breeders try to get kelpies to be border collies.

Tiger is really all that you have said...

And he is both physical and mental just I like to be! And very, very like as my Elmo wk! Even so much that our postman believed they are realtives! When I said they don´t even be the same breed, he didn´t believe me...

Satu

I hope I can manage tranfref this link to you, there´s also lots of photos of our farm, training, farm trials 2008 ect (you can watch them by clicking the holder signs on the right side of the page) but also there´s some snapshots of our Muffy taken yesterday:) It´s almost impossible to get a picture because she enjoys the snow so much with her friends. I´m also more than pleased on her.

http://www.kuvaboxi.fi/julkinen/2augh+sikke-omat-koirat.html

Sinikka

Which folder has the pictures of Muffy? (I couldn't find any of her.) But I did find some of what I think was a Pumi. Apparently there is one breeder of Pumik in this country at the moment, with very few dogs. Lapphunds are just starting to get popular here too. The ppl I know of who have them seem extremely happy with them. And I saw a Mudi too. I have only seen black ones in pictures.

I find it so interesting to see these breeds that we hear of, but haven't ever seen in the flesh.

Your Schnauzers looks wonderful too. Have you been breeding them long?

I´ve been breedin Giants for 19 years.
Muffy in is folder "Omat koirat" which means "My dogs". (Now you have a possibility to learn some Finnish too, so when you come and visit us, we can speak both languages:)
In Finland we have so big variety in races that it makes you confused!
And can you imagine: only border collies and working kelpies have been accepted to trainings/farms! Althought main slice of our dogs are from herding races!
Sinikka

What glorious photos from both sets of Finnish Koolies. Pleased to hear that you are happy with them. Tiger looks most interested in the chickens and it looks like Muffy enjoys the snow a lot.

Ok, can see them now - must have had my brain switched off earlier - went into the other files but didn't think to scroll down, duh!

Muffy looks like a really happy, funny pup.

Hi,

There is some new photos in my photobucket...

I tried to take photos but it wasn´t so easy because Elmo and Tage (Tiger) were so busy! ;) There was only snow in some photos and in some photos were snow and two tails... Fortunately I had my dogs even few photos!


http://s359.photobucket.com/albums/oo34/satka_photos/

Satu

ok now thats cold but very beautiful, great photos and it looks like tiger is having a great time in the snow, is he feeling the cold much at all compaired to your other dog who is used to it

great pics!! What part of Finland are you in, I know a few dogsledding people over there.

Love the snow play!! I like the photo where he has a bit of snow on the end of his nose and the way Tiger and Elmo are "playing" with the cat in the snow! Do you have any trouble with the pads of their paws in the snow?

Satu and Tage-the-handsome (Tiger) are living in western Finland, so nowadays when climate has already changed radically here also, they rarely have snow trought whole winter, me and Muffy are living in middle-east of Finland and sometimes it gets almost -40 degrees cold in the winter.(But not so often, Thank God!)Usually our temperatures are changing between -5 to -20 degrees during December-March.
Muffy has no difficulties with snow at all, I think it´s because she´s moving all the time:)

Nowadays she´s been working inside with small goats (maybe 5-7 animals, and if you are familiar with goats, you certainly konow that they are "individually"-thinking-ones, always prefer moving alone than in stock!) who are jumping away from gages (because grass is greener over the fence): when I work with bigger dogs she calmly puts those escaped-ones back to where they belonge, one at the time. And after all goats are certainly "done" she starts to take similar care of our chickens and roosters- she makes them also walk to one specific gage and after that looks so pleased to herself that I really hope I can some day capture that face to a photo! And after hard work is done, it´s again time to play:)

Sinikka

Yes, I think this snow will melt away and when it will snow again in january that snow will stay (I hope...). But I still hope the white Christmas ;) We live in south-western Finland and the sea (ca. 50 km of us) makes our climate warmer. In janyary-february we have sometimes -20 degrees or colder, usually we have -10 - +5 degrees. Then it´s getting warmer but it can be very cold by nights yet in march.

Tage loves to play in the snow! So the snow in our yard is full of pawprints!
Tage feels cold in the same way than my other dogs. I can´t see any differences between them. Only my almost 16 years old standard poodle had troubles with his paws during his last winter (5 years ago). If it was too cold I dressed his paws with socks when he went out. :)

Satu

"Sigh" I have never seen snow, someone once told me to stick my head in a freezer and that is what snow is like!! You guys must be so proud of your babies. Looks like they have settled right at home and loving it. And they sound like good little workers too.

PS I will never complain about it getting cold here, the coldest it has ever been is a measly -7 and that was just one day.

Some time ago I just received a mail from Kerrie and she told me that always forgets in internet (which gives an opportunity to talk like we are right beside each others) how far away we are! Like night and day!
I´m stuck on Australian TV-serie called Mc Leods Daughters (or something like that) which tells about group of women in sheep and cattlefarms there in your country. Oh if I would have that kind of farm and fields- just riding on horse from one place to another with a group of dogs..in Finland farming it´s so different.
Yesterday night Muffy was first time on snow-mobile.That wasn´t fun:)

Sinikka

Well you'll have to plan a trip down here then ceejay, we get snow & are about 1/2hr froma ski resort LOL.

I know the climate change is being felt over there, I know a lot of the mushing kennels have noticed a dramatic change over the last few years in snowfall. 1 lady I know over there usually gets snowed in better part of Nov/March with deep snow....one season they didn't get any until late Feb & it lasted 3days then another the next week, extreme difference to their normal winter patterns. It was like a novelty to take the dogs out with the sled when its usually normal for them to train daily for a few months.

I remember Inda's 1st look at snow soon after we got him from Kerrie, trying to get him to pose for a photo sitting on a log with his *bits* in the snow, the look on his face in the photos was enough....

ooh don't tempt me Mushoz, I would love to have a look at your trick horses and your lovely deaf koolie (sorry cannot remember the name off the top of my head) and all the other ones too. One day will do a trip down that way, I want to have a look at Brumbies before I depart this world. Though I don't know about the skiing bit, you should see me on or should I say off roller blades. lol.