I just found out something really interesting. To track down the lineage of a boy or girl down the mothers sde you go via the mitochondrial DNA. To track down the lineage of the fathers side you test on the Y chromosone. As girls don't have a Y chromosone you have to test a close male relative on his Y to find out what the girls fathers line is. Have I got this right? What say you, the braniacs on the forum.

Guess this proves I'm not a brainiac - got no idea!! But interested.

Have never really thought about tracing lineage in this way - why would this be beneficial? Could you tell who they inherited particular genetic material from? That could help with future decisions about the parents I guess (thinking about animals there). What about all the stuff on the other chromosomes? I guess you don't get any useful info about them from this?

Thanks Shaunagh - love it when you challenge us to think about these things (and let me indulge in my love for genetics).

OK, now don't laugh but this line of inquiry stared for me when I saw an interview with Oprah who had her DNA done with a bunch of other black celebrities. Apparently it's a bit of a craze in America at the moment with black people. The interview was basically that there had been stories go down the Winfrey family (like all families) for years as to who and what race of Africans theywere descended from, that there was native american in their line etc.

Anyways, Oprah was completely wrong about her family origins in Africa but she did have native american in her line. Anyway, because they are trying to track down generations and race, rather than genetic inheritance of characteristics like ilnesses (or the merle gene LOL), which obviously you need to look at all the chromosones for, it figures that if you want to track your mothers line you go down the mitochondrial DNA, but down the Y for the father, and of course girls have no Y. I'm still getting my head around it but here is an article about the project. link

Anyway, I'm all about Koolies! So I was wondering if this is the kind of test that is being done by the Koolie DNA people, as I understand those tests will primarily show up family groups, and if a girls is DNA tested would you need to get her dad or brother done to show the fathers line for her.

"For those not into biology: mitochondria are intracellular bodies that generate most of the energy needed for life. Mitochondria were once separate organisms (like bacteria) that became associated with other cells and, through evolution, began to focus primarly on metabolism. Indeed, mitochondria still have their own DNA, separate from the regular nuclear DNA. Even more topical to this discussion is that all of our mitochondria (and mitochondrial DNA) comes from one's mother, as sperm heads are devoid of mitochondria. So, mitochondria are the source of energy in our cells AND they all come from the mother...interesting parallel? This new, crazy idea about "a microscoptic life form that resides in all living cells" is not that original after all."
OK that quote comes from a Star Wars forum!!! I remembered a line from the movie and looked it up!!! I don't know whether dog genetics is going into the depths of this type of research or whether they are just looking at the groups of familiar DNA. But sure is interesting to speculate!
That link is pretty interesting - saw an Oprah show ages ago where she was talking about this type of genetic testing and she was going to do it. Sometimes the verbal history doesn't always connect with the scientific data collected - will it be the same for koolies?

ETA I don't know whether that Star Wars quote is correct or not, but I think it has the basics! Seems everyone's getting into genetics these days!!!lol

Well, it's through mitochondrial DNA that they have traced our human ancestry back to a single woman from Africa about 100,000 to 200,000 years ago. I always wondered why they didn't trace back to the first father, and I think the answer is obvious as we inherit mitochondrial DNA from our mother, but there doesn't seem to be such a handy equivalent from the fathers side.

i know that with inbreeding you can breed out the grandmother by breeding father over daughter you should get 2 pups from this joining that have only chromosomes inherited from the father and none from the grandmother that makes them completely unrelated to their own grandmother. you will also have a pup that is A-A or in other words it has 2 identical chromosomes and is completely homozygous, which means that every gene is the same on both chromosomes and that means it can only pass that chromosome onto all it's pups therefore it will breed consistently and be proponent and have a stronger influence then normal with it's offspring.
OK now lets talk about Mirra her mother is sticky beak- father Rollo sticky beaks mother is patch patches father is Rollo her mother is spot, Spots father is Rollo, so i would take it that Mirra is pure Rollo (inbreed with no health problems and is very smart) as both grandmother and gr grandmother would not exist and the only chromosomes left would have to be Rollo's but then again she looks more like her mother and i think acts more like her but i am just going from the pic's that i have of these dogs but i must say both Mirra and Sticky Beak have Rollo's body shape. now this is a question i have be thinking about for a while what do you reckon would happen if Mirra was breed to a unrelated dog would Rollo's influence still rule and we end up with a heap of little Mirra's running around or would the new blood into the lines counter act some of the chromosomes in some of the pups now just remember please that i have only been thinking about what would happen if this was done, i know that a lot of old timers inbreed on purpose to make sure that 80% or more of there pups turned out to be top workers inbred in this way. now this was not done in Mirra's case as the people that owned the bitch's in Mirra's family did not own Rollo he came from the farm next door to them and was an unwanted visitor

If Mirra was really as inbred as that (completely homozygous) she'd be dead. Period.

You've got me totally confused, need time to think this through.

eta: Haven't tried to work out the percentages, but yes a lot of her genetic material has probably come from Rollo (0.685? might be totally wrong about that, need to refresh my memory of how to work it out). But she herself can't have inherited a y chromosome from him (being female). And neither could have any of her female ancestors who are his daughters. She will have one x from him (which he got from his mother) and one from her own mother, which Sticky Beak herself could have got from either her own father or Patches (SB herself would have one from each parent, but can only pass on one or the other, not both, to any individual pup), if from Patches, then it could have come from Rollo or Spot, and again, if from Spot, it could have come either from Rollo or from Spot's own mother. MG!! What a tangle. Think I've got them all in the right order.

When I drew out the pedigree and marked an x that didn't come from Rollo (one of Spot's, or one from SB's father) I can follow it right up to Mirra, so it a possibility that one of her x chromosomes is not actually from Rollo. Although it is definitely possible that both are.

Probably relatively few general characteristics that are important in a breeding program are caused by genes on the sex chromosomes (according to Wiki they are 'gene-poor' - in humans, the x has about 1000 working genes, the y, only 86, some species have many fewer). I would think Rollo's genetic influence on Mirra through other genes would probably be more important than through the sex-chromosomes, unless he unfortunately had some abnormality in a gene on one of them.

Hi Shaunagh
I don't believe this is the type of testing being done on the dogs, there has never been reference only to the x & y chromosomes but I'll try and remember next time we meet with them to ask about it. Although usually we are flat out trying to suck all the information we can out of them in our allowed time and there are so many directions our minds are trying to cover. By the time we head off for the 3 hr drive home the minds are spinning. They have indicated that they will be able assess the breed of both parents, grand parents and possibly gg grand parents - to do this they would have to be able to test both sexes equally so I don't believe it would be restricted to just 2 chromosomes.
A couple of interesting points, while the female human/dog etc is the xx in birds and I think reptiles the female is xy. In birds at least there are some 'sex linked' colours such as cinnamon which are linked to the x & y chromosome so a female (xy) cannot carry the colour hidden like the male (xx).
Royalla
As there is something like 200 gene pairs in dogs (that are tested anyway) you are relying on each pup receiving the exact same sequence from each parent for the two to be genetically identical. This won't happen as the combinations possible are just too huge over those 200 pairs as each parent only contributes one you would need both to contribute the exact same one in each position. The original dogs would not be identical so there would be diversity in the genes to start with. It takes many generations to get close to what you are talking about, something like what the modern "pure breeds" are looking down the barrel of now, hence they have strengthened faults along with those perceived good points.

Koolies fortunately have comparitavely good diversity and we have been advised by the genetecists to protect that diversity as much as we can. Inbreeding isn't all some breeders make it out to be, it might strengthen the good points but it is guaranteed to nail down faults at the same time. One of the main reasons the club was formed was to put breeders in touch so that they don't just use one sire or one line in their breeding but can mix and match and bring fresh blood into their breeding so that the chance of concentrating a fault is reduced.

deleted because I'm embarrassed by how wrong I think my inbreeding coefficient calculations were, but can't do any better :-)

it's OK sil i know the odds are very small for this to happen but it does happen but not often. i got Mirra's gr mother and gr gr mothers mixed around it go's Mirra, Sticky beak, spot then patch. and you will all be pleased to know that i talked Mirra's breeder into desexing sticky beck and she has been done but there is nothing they can do about Rollo as he is not their dog, i don't know much about Rollo apart from he was breed by some bloke that moved down south a bit and that this bloke has had koolies for a bloody long time, he was a older gentleman and was not very well when he moved so is proberly dead now or in a nursing home.

AS I understand it, when there is a mating you basically get all the possible variations from each parent (50% from each) and it all gets shaken up and what you have come out in the offspring is a random combination, and as you say, with the variations possible it would be so remote mathematicall that you'd get exact copies. As I see it, even if Mirra was her fathers offspring, there are still plent of combinations on the X side to keep it random and Mirras mother would be throwing in DNA which she has which would not be a copy of the fathers because it's all got to be different ?????? Does this make sense?

Lookie what I found, http://www.ihh.kvl.dk/htm/kc/popgen/genetics/genetik.htm haven't read it yet but I will have a go. Koolie Mum, there is a list of links to various genetics calculators at Ch 14. I wouldn't have a clue how to use them, maybe you know enough of the basics :)

What i meant is Mirra is no longer related to her grandmother or gr grandmother she is very much related to Rollo lol what a problem dog i would have snuck him of to the vet and got him fixed up. Anyway i have a lovely dog from it, she has the best nature and every one that meets her just loves her, a lot of old timers use to breed the way Mirra was bred and thats how they bred their top working lines but as sil said this also bred in the problems too! the old timers were not worried about that they just culled those dogs out and kept the dogs with the good trait's to breed on with, this type of breeding is not my cup of tea at all but there are still a few that breed this way.

Mirra is very pretty as well, she's one of my favourites of yours, the look of her.

Royalla she will still have genes passed to her from her grand and great grandmother, out of all those genes some of them will have been passed down through successive lines to her, that is how some of those horrible genetic diseases carry on and on.

Now come on Sil you just upset my day lol my way of thinking would have got rid of the kelpie in her now you have just put it back lol I know it was a 100000-1 chance that she now be unrelated to her gr grandmother but i like to think that she is that 1. thank you shaunagh Mirra is a stunner well i think so anyway and she is a clown just like Quin, but worse because she gets to come inside the house and sleep in my room (on the floor)but she is a very painful alarm clock, you will be sound asleep then you get a cold wet nose jammed into your back and i am sure some times she try's to drive it all the way through lol and if you try to ignore her and hide under the blankets Mirra will do donuts all over the bed and try to get under the blankets with you, now being on my bed is a big NO NO but have you ever tried going crook at something while trying to hide from it and laughing that hard you are just about wetting yourself, It just does not have the required effect and if you shove her of the bed she is back before you even bring your arms back, this play will keep going until you get up and let her out for a wee, she also has a couple of other tricks up her sleeves to get your attention when out in the yard if you are wearing shorts she puts her cold nose on the back of your knees left right left right as you walk along if you go crook at her for this she has got you and if you ignore her she changes her tactic to placing her feet on the back of yours for each step that you take and she can do this with out scratching you with her nails and if you go crook she has won again i have even given her a smack for this but she just steps out of reach smiling at you and wagging her tail,and have you tried to type something when your arm is getting flicked up by that very same nose yes she won again you have to pat her with one hand so that you can type with the other, I know it's bad manners but she does not do it to every one just me as i am mum and i really don't mind as between Mirra and Quin i get a good laugh each day at what those two scally wags get up to each day.... God i just had a very scary through what kind of pups would you get if you breed those two together aah i am running away i would have pups that seek attention in strange ways 24-7 but the plus side would be that you won't have to bend down to pat them as they would walk on their hind legs beside you not touching you just to get a chest rub yes quin does that one lol maybe i could sell them to the circus lol i am sure there are little clown faces mixed into their DNA lol