Hi all,

It's taken me a while to do this - 2 young kids and equally young dogs will do that! - but finally here. I've got 2 Koolies - Burra [black with white bib] who is a 3 year old male from Frank Kelm in Vic, and Kinta [merle] a 7 month old female from Jackie Hunter's Allambie Koolies in Qld.

We learned about Koolies from a friend of ours who was very taken with them - we both chose our first Koolies from Kerrie Challenger's Tjurkupa Koolies. Our friend Glen still has his Girra [merle male]. Our beloved Cobar we lost at 9months from a kidney defect, absolutely devastating but resolved us to have another Koolie down the track. That was Burra. And then some not-so-subtle prodding of my husband led to me getting Kinta.

They are both lovely dogs, great natured, smart as tacks and such a part of our family. We love the beach, camping, walks etc so they are happy! We have just started Burra with some basic agility, and hope to take both him and Kinta further down this path. We are just amazed how quickly Kinta picked up the simple commands like "sit" "stay" "wait" "out" etc. She has real manners, not coming into the house or leaving the gate unless asked.

Our two children have grown up with our koolies, which has been very important to us. Our son is 2 1/2 and literally hangs off Burra, they are best friends. And our daughter is 9 months and so has grown up literally climbing all over Kinta. While we watch dogs & kids very closely at all times, we are just so thrilled with how well they all get along.

Hope to post some pictures of our "mob" soon!

Another new member!! You are going to love this forum... its is full of great stories, advice and photos.

Cant wait to see a photo of you mob :-)

welcome to the forum

sounds like you have a lovely family I imagine it makes you very happy to see animals and children all getting along.

I wish my koolie would wait at the gate, thats one of the issues im having atm, if i just leave it open and dissapear...so does he :/ any advice?

im sure it wont take you long to find you're way around the board and to find the many cute puppy pics :)

cant wait to see some pics of you're tribe

Welcome to the forum Gypsy1971 and great to see my baby is happy and behaving herself! It will be great to see some photos of her! Her sister Juna, in Germany has started attending herding clinics (ducks), I am sure it must be in heated arenas, cause it is just so cold over there.

Hope you enjoy the forum as much as you have your koolies! Having them grow with your children will mean they have 2 more protectors than normal - I'll never forget a lady who rang just to tell us that her two koolies had saved her young children when they wandered off in country Tasmania. The dogs kept with them until they got tired and stopped, one stayed with them while the other went back to tell mum and lead them in the opposite direction to where the search was being conducted...


Dandybrush Ummmm...don't leave it open! Bwahahah sorry

Welcome to the Koolie forum.

It's full of wonderful people, with lots of informatin, stories and pictures of the awesome breed.

Enjoy

Gypsy1971, you'll love it on here everyone's great. Might see you around the place I'm in Murray Bridge, do herding in Meadows & go to Hahndorf & Balhannah regularly. I always stop & talk when I see a Coolie, telling you this so you have a chance to RUN FOR YOUR LIFE because I'll talk you to death , just love my Coolies .

Welcome to the forum!! Just be prepared to provide lots of photos and for the conversation to wander off track at times. It's lovely to have another voice on the forum!

Welcome to the forum, :-)I'm Penny, I have one koolie and 2 Welsh springers. Agility is my main dog sport, all my dogs do or have done it :-) there's quite a few of us on here who do agility in varying degrees :-)
There's always something to talk about, and as you might have noticed, we all love to see pictures!
Can't wait to see Kinta again, having eagerly followed her litter's progress as babies.

Welcome to our wonderful forum. Would love to see a photo of all of your babies. Koolies are fantastic with children, Ceejay adopts everyones. I have one Koolie named Ceejay and a kelpie x called Izzy who is a pretend koolie. I do lots of things with my dogs, agility, obedience, scent work and herding. I don't compete though just do it for fun. Enjoy the forum.

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Dandybrush Ummmm...don't leave it open! Bwahahah sorry
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i dont normally leave it open...but i would like to be able to walk to the mail box and know he is gonna stay there and not just run off :/ i have been working on it just leaving open for a couple secs when i wander out the front..but i wouldnt say he was solid at all and im not worried he will run away just that he would run on the road and get hit...he has no road sense :/

Sorry dandybrush, just pulling your leg.
Sounds like you are doing the right thing, I would want to know that I really had him responding well to stop commands first. Coincidences happen too often and I would hate for him to see the neighbours cat, or a person he loved and have him bolt just as a car came along.

Aaah Hahndorf... I wanno go back to SA!!! And Murray Bridge - good native plant nursery there. TJ we need a road trip!!!!!

Yep, if that's all you want, make sure he has a real solid wait, and do it a wee bit at a time, like you are. Sounds like you're on the right track, just keep persisting, it won't happen overnight. Since it's a life and death situation, if a car happens along, it would be the one time I'd give a real growling for coming out. AFTER he understands you want a stay inside the gate.
I taught Dice a "stay Inside" gave him one verbal bollocking once when he bolted through without permission, and he now either sits nearby the gate, or plays it real safe and goes back about fifteen feet when the gate is open, so it can't be mistaken that he is DEFINATELY NOT coming out :-)

He hates being growled, so I save it for really important things, where he's going to get hurt if he doesn't listen. :-)

yes aaron just has to growl and raz will roll over...unfortulately my growl isnt as scary and he mostly ignores me :/

so I mostly give him time outs for being bad instead of bothering with trying to growl. I'll keep at it though

Don't let him ignore you, it is very important he sees you as a superior.
Koolies are VERY good at training you, if you don't take a stand.
Doing it now will mean many years of happy devotion by your dog to you, not just you to your dog.

I think he does listen to me... mostly, my growls just dont scare him :/

but the timeouts work when i say "too bad" he knows he is off to the bathroom and almost puts himself in the time out haha though i do think he has trained me well

Sil, how do you deal with the koolie attitude of "no - I dont think I want to come inside right this minute but thank you for asking. I will hang over here until I am ready thanks" attitude? I am having this with Bug of late ( okay - since she arrived) where she decides what she is going to do and when she will do what I want. She will actually stand me off and stare at me as if to say "no -really - Ill just hang here. Catch me later when I have time for you". So I guess - how do you make a Koolie do what you want and not what they want.

Any advice appreciated.


Natalie

Welcome to the forum I also want to do agilty with Kylo when she old enough.
Looking forward to seeing some picks.

micknmol

from my small experience training raz and by talking to our trainers. the number one rule is patience, you have to outpersist them (bug). so if you want bug to come in when you say so this is what I would do.

I would stand at the door and call raz "inside" if raz came straight in i would reward with a handful of treats. If raz didnt come straight in i would close the door (so he couldnt come in by his choice) and walk away. then try again in 5 mins the same routine. Dont give in and let them choose when they want in or it wont work. and if he comes and scratches at the door you ignore him till he is quiet then approach the door and try again..

Thats just what i would do

Hmm, that's very different to what I'd do. To me that lets the dog win. He got to stay outside where he wanted to be rather than doing what you told him. If you keep coming back every five minutes and trying again, he gets to win lots of times.

I believe if you have taught a dog what a command means, eg "inside" and they know what it means - have demonstrated by coming inside on command multiple times in the past - then you need to enforce that command. Simply by going outside, taking him/her by the collar and saying "inside" firmly, and taking the dog inside. "I say it, you do it" end of story.

If they tend to run when you go to take the collar, leave a piece of rope on the collar, longer than the distance at which they bolt when you go to get hold of them. If you need to enforce your command, walk out, put your foot on the rope and you have caught them to do as above.

IF YOU AREN'T ABLE TO ENFORCE A COMMAND, DON'T GIVE IT. That just lets the dog learn to disobey.

When they first go walks off lead, my dogs often drag a long rope (30 ft) from their collar, and I carry a pouch of treats. I repeatedly wait until the rope is in stepping distance, put my foot on it, and then call the pup. If it responds by coming, great, treats and off you go again, it never knows I was able to catch it if it chose not to come.
If not, I am able to tweak the rope a couple of times to remind to come.
If pup is 50 ft away, and I can't reach the rope, I don't call. Not until I am sure it will come. Or I call one of the older dogs, and the youngster will come with them. Then if it doesn't come, well, I didn't call pup anyway.

It doesn't usually take very long for them to graduate to no rope.

I am currently training someone else's agility dog to work with me, and am using a long line on him, because I don't believe he will respond every time to me yet, and I don't want to give him the chance to ignore me. :-)
yesterday I needed it, he saw his owner and bolted. Fortunately this time I was prepared, and braced myself for him hitting the end of the line. Last time I threw a ball too far, he pulled me over. On a gravel path. I have the scars to prove it!

Long lines do need a little caution, don't step on them accidentally, otherwise the dog gets jerked to a halt when he did nothing wrong. you do also once in a while have to untangle then from bushes, but it's worth it as a training aid.

yes penny...i was just trying to think of an easy solution...but im the same we've been taught to never give a command you dont expect them to follow, raz has an awesome recall...except for when he spots water he can swim in...gotta work on that

prob listen to pennys advice..she said what i couldnt be bothered to type

Ha, Paxy certainly this in spades. I frequently refer to it as giving me the finger!!! It is extremely frustrating and I have made some mistakes regarding this I admit. Wonderful off lead going for a walk but at home, it's "you want me to come - pfft, better things to do, there's flies to chase". So trying to get her to obey the "come" when she gave me the flick involved chasing her, which of course is just a big reward for her! So Penny's advice about using a long line is very good and I wished I had done that when she was a pup, but I never thought she'd find the backyard environment more exciting than me!!! (OK silly me!!) I have to add conditioning your dog to a collar grab is invaluable for many reasons!

So what I've done with Paxy involved throwing food, anytime she turned and looked at me even while she was running (she didn't have to be near me) I used my verbal mark (or you could use a clicker) and I threw food at her (yummy stuff like devon/meat roll). Gradually she would come closer and then I could give her a sit command or "collar" which for her means stand still and I could then attach a lead and bring her inside. The other thing I've taught her is a "touch" command. I can ask her to touch my hand which brings her in and I can then get her to come inside with me. It has been a long haul for Princess Paxy and a valuable learning curve for myself and I'm still working on being more exciting than fly chasing. Oh and also recall from out of the water - that's a hard one!

One of the things you also need to remember is never chastise your dog after you've called it to you. If you have to chastise your dog for something go to it otherwise you can quickly ruin a recall.

"One of the things you also need to remember is never chastise your dog after you've called it to you. If you have to chastise your dog for something go to it otherwise you can quickly ruin a recall."

Absolutely true! One of the first things I learnt, and so automatic now that I didn't even think to mention it!

we conditioned raz to grabbing his collar as a baby.. to do that at random times during the day inside and outside at the park..wherever you are, grab a treat grab the collar say "gotchya" handful of treats then i let go and say "free" so i can grab his collar anytime he never moves away from me

yes penny i learned that one too...raz ran across the road the other day i was soo mad but he came when i called...so i couldnt really rouse on him at all. if i had however used the cue "too bad" when he was doing the naughty deed then i could have put him in the bathroom for a time out after he had come...cause "too bad" is his mark for time out, you've been naughty

My input is a bit late as I haven't had a computer for a bit. Longlines are excellent tools to start off with. With Ceejay's recall I worked it a bit differently, I had a second person hold her and I went away with her favourite pull toy, I called her name while running in the opposite direction and when the other person felt her wanting to go released her. Did that when she was a pup, so when I know call she comes anytime. As for the little attitude, if their is a distraction go up to your dog, touch them to get their attention and then give them the command. I had to do this with their play chasing along the fence line with the other dogs, even out at night with a torch to go over touch them, give them the come command and go. Watch the ears, if they swivel back to the distraction say the command again, keep in mind to succeed. Watching body language is so important, especially with Izzy with her kangaroo chasing, if I miss it she is off and no matter how I call, whistle she is in that zone. Secret back up plan, Ceejay! Tell her to "Get Izzy" off she goes, and gives her nips on the butt to break her out of it and then goes and heads her off. Absolutely brilliant.

With the growl have you tried throat clearing, it almost sounds like a growl and use your body language, dogs are very good at picking up subtle signs and energy.

Sorry it has taken me a while to catch up here but everyone seem to have pretty good ideas.
Considering where she came from I think a good rousing would probably stir her up a bit! She will know better than that.

For us, we are not dog trainers...we don't carry treats and we don't have a lot of time to muck around. It would be difficult to use a long rope although I really like the idea, getting it undone from cows legs would be interesting.
We currently have two bitches from our May litter who are starting to work well but we are yet to perfect the attitude but they will. In your situation we try not to do the block (very important, but as a last resort can do the trick) but from a very young age while out and about each time they are near us we pull them gently against our legs give them a good pat and "good girl" and let them go, then as they are walking past try calling them and if they come over same treatment. Always for no particular reason as they soon associate. We then usually go through a period where they are happy to come and then their life gets going and they are out around the farm and going places. Life is fun. We go through a selective deafness period. We try to be gentle and friendly and calmly persist after a while they usually get in the habit or follow the older dogs. 95% of the time we have great response by them to our pleasure, good girls and pats and a drink of milk at the dairy and any time we have to tie them up they get a huge cuddle and we find ourselves with dogs leaning on our legs to be tied up. (They love routine as well.) 5% of the time they are silly enough to think they still don't have to listen and after a few tries we'll go over grab them by the collar and drag them over to where they have to be give them a good pat and cuddle. YOU have to take control. This is a very important stage of the relationship where either they give themselves to you, or you conform. It's not easy and you need to be aware of where they are and what they are doing all the time to pre-empt their behaviour if you can because they think wow mum knew I was going to do that before I did! I better watch myself and they will defer to you.
As I said we are not dog trainers, our dogs are our friends and workmates, we don't want them acting like little robots but we know they will respond to our tone of voice and if we want them somewhere we usual ask a couple of times maximum if they still don't respond then drop the voice and draw out the name, they know what is coming next and usually toddle over with a wag looking for a cuddle. Right or wrong it seems to be our routine. They are not perfectly trained, but we have their respect....

note: We liken this part of their life to teenage years, where they think they know better. The experience of the unpleasantness of skidding across the ground with the brakes on is no where near as unpleasant as being squashed by the tractor or kicked in the head by a bull, which is why it is better for us sometimes to resort to being physical. They are better off learning the lesson quickly. Most of you would be able to put more patience into it than that so we might not be the best example..

Just a quick one, I also use the command wait when we go out walking off lead, all that does is pull them up and they wait for you to come to them and then they are off again. This command just eventuated as Ceejay started pausing when off lead and I inserted the command here. It is great to use.

Sil, all what you said makes sense and the farm situation would be a lot different from a lot of us here. I think because you expect it from your dogs they react to that and respect you in a good way of course. Gawd if I was a dog I would look forward to the milk. I was one of the mad kids that loved drinking cows milk straight from the bucket when dad bought it back from milking the old girl. I don't know whether I could do that now.

I had a farmer drop off a heap of garden mulch the other day and commented that I have well behaved dogs. I told them to wait when he was reversing the truck in, the amazing thing is, they did. lol.

that is awesome ceejay, i love when i get compliments on raz's behaviour, I have had a couple around the dog park. if i had a truck reversing...i wouldnt trust raz to not approach it so i would prob tie him up, so good work ceejay :)

Yes Silhouette, i think you have a very good system, raz loves treats and toys as his rewards but if i didnt have the time for all of that im sure he would enjoy a good pat too :)
I also agree with you about the robot comment, raz is trained but he does missbehave and he does fit into our lives very nicely. I have a friend who didnt want to put in the time to train herself, so she sent her kelpie away for 3 weeks when she picked him up he was trained when asked to sit or drop he would stay that way till given a new command just staring straight ahead. I thought that was sad cause i love to see raz's personality even when he is telling me to shove the command haha (of course he isnt as strictly trained now cause emma didnt keep up what he had learned, though she does try)

Thanks Sil and everyone else for their input. I think you hit the nail on the head about her just being a teenager and just trying what she can and cant do. And yes, your right as a good rousing would do the trick and I guess I was a bit worried about doing that as reading all the comments on the training thread the general comments was that they were very soft in certain situations. I will always be grateful that I took the 11 hour trip to Kerrie's to see her dogs. I learnt a lot in that short visit and if I had not seen how they were worked I would have treated her a lot different to what I do and that would have caused no end of problems.

So far she is a happy well balance little pup and I am hoping to keep her that way. I am still enjoying the path of a new breed and learning as much as I can about them. Its exciting!

Natalie

I wasn't aiming the comment about robots at anyone here.... I just know what some people like to do to dogs.
We love the character of koolies and their ability to think a problem through. This can be invaluable in a farm situation and has paid of for us several times. They can be very determined when faced with an unruley beast, this we have seen several times with mature jersey bulls which is about the crankiest bull you can deal with. We have one at the moment that is in a paddock with heifers near where I load the hay up each night to feed calves and horses. Every night for about a week he came over and bellowed at me and dug up the dirt. Smokey comes with me to feed up and had been ignoring him and chasing rabbits. One night feeling pretty cranky myself I just whispered to her "push him up" and off she went through the fence, gave him a woof and waited..nothing, so she jumped in his face with a big woof and around he went and she took him over to the gate to the next paddock and I called out good girl and she left him alone. For the next week each time he would come over and without any comand she would turn him around and take him away. He then couldn't be bother trying. The advantage of this is it is training the bull that he isn't the king of the heap and to be respectful so that when we have to load him up and send him off to some other farmers place he will already respect us and the dogs. While she was doing this I was loading up the hay and getting on with it.

Koolies have a huge character, some methods will over ride that and you won't see the best of your dog. Ours are sometimes unruley and a fair bit of cursing goes on...
It is very hard to describe a koolie to people because they seem to reflect their owners character to a degree (if allowed to develop one) and as we meet people and their dogs over the last 10 years it hits you time and time again,the vast majority of the people and dogs are pretty laid back and really want to enjoy each others company which allows the true koolie character to shine. Ocassionaly you meet or talk to someone that you just wish would buy a kelpie...quite often they end up wandering off in another direction but the effects on their dogs are permanent. It is very difficult when people say "what wonderful dogs you should shout from the roof tops about how good they are and promote the breed". We try to protect the breed more than promote it, discussing requirements with new people, educating if possible, making information and articles available and encouraging them here and to meetings for interaction with others. Hoping that breeders will stop and think about the suitability of a purchaser for each pup before the money, everything has helped and we have seen a drop off in the number of koolies going through rescue. So many of which are young dogs in those "teenage years" where I think they got to this sometimes tricky stage and the dog won. Only to loose in the end.

Natalie
It is great that you went to visit in more ways than one, I don't know if anyone prepares their puppies for their new homes as well as Kerrie does and it certainly gives the owner and the dog a head start. Glad you are enjoying her so much.

My morning walks include anywhere from 10 to 18 dogs and they all just run free but always within calling distance. I have two dogs that I always walk on lead that is Smith because if I don't keep my concentration on him he will bring the cattle to me where ever they are he is so quick(even the neighbours cattle) so it is easier to keep him with me than I can concentrate on the whole group rather than one and Chevy because she is a ratter and once she gets in the Lantana she totally forgets I exist and I have to wait a couple of hours for her to remember that there is something called HOME and then she will turn up on her own.

I always walk with treats and call different ones to me during the walk give a treat and release. I find that eventually they all check in. They have to do something for their treat, sit, beg etc and then they are released. We walk the boundary of the farm next door and it takes about an hour & half and have to cross several creeks so they get a swim on the way. They all have good recalls even the pups, except when we come across a herd of cattle then sometimes the training holds and I can weave in amongst them and othertimes they are a bit too quick for me and it requires a good firm LEAVE IT to get them to drop the cattle and return.

Hi Gypsy 1971
Welcome great another South Aussie lol
I do compete both in obedience and agility. I have two coolies and a borde collie
cheers
Danni

Jackie
That sounds like heaven on a stick, how much fun. We (only) have 6 koolies, I love taking the younger ones for a run with the quad bike, particularly if they put up a hare.

I used to jog with them but I stuffed my knee last year when Frazz chased a sheep into me at a workshop in Innisfail and I landed wrong tearing the attachments to the knee so now it is a walk in the mornings and as the days get shorter and on weekends I take the four wheeler instead. Frazz is just now learning to ride on the back. They will all jump on the back but would rather run flat out beside or in front. Lots of exercise makes a happy Koolie. Then they are quiet in their paddocks when I have to take time out to go to work and earn some money to feed the hord.

My two have their good points and their bad points around general obedience. Alby is very quick to obey me, except when he's in male mode around other males-and he loses his brain altogether in that situation, lol He is alot better since I worked out that I need to show dominant behavior over him in situations where he may be thinking of being dominant over others (in other words-I beat him to the punch if you know what I mean). Jacksy is a much smarter and subtler dog, and is a great one for getting around to obeying in his time and his way-but never so disobedient as to get in trouble. He doesn't blue with other dogs for example-so he gets under the radar and gets away with alot just because of this. The reason is he was the first of my two and he knows me inside out and how far he can push it. He is a bit of an arrogant dog too, in that he thinks basic obedience is a bit common for him as he is special-true. Alby is the second dog and fell into line quickly. Because they both know obedience, the thing for me is to get off my butt and go out of my way to reinforce the basics, even if it is a bit inconvenient to the routine they have in place after training ME! lol. One thing I will say though-watch what your dog is and isn't doing. Sometimes there is a bit of dog wisdom in it. If so, learn the dog wisdom and common sense and adjust your training to it.

Hey Gypsy did you see the photo's of the Scholars in Collars graduates on face book .

Hey no, didn't realise Alexis had a page. Go Kinta! :)