Here are a couple of photos taken of Bill Widdows koolies on our recent visit there.
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Still have more photos to process so will add more as time permits.[/blue]
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Nice shots... Silhouette..looking forward to many more 
Hi Belenus
There are a couple of angles to looking at whether to breed from a dog or not...what are you trying to achieve from the maiting is the question. Bill will be the first to tell you (he doesn't have internet access so can't reply for himself) that he breeds working dogs first and foremost. The dog in the photo I named mother (because I forgot her name at the time of processing the photo) had a litter of pups while we were there and they were all well coloured with no excess of white and no amount to be worried about on the head. He had chosen the sire well, this is the other question when breeding from a particular dog, what do you breed it to. In this case he had bred her to a solid colour dog that had no problems with pigmentation so it was certainly unlikely the small amount of pink on her nose would have any affect...all the pups were fine. When breeding any animal if a breeder is honest with themselves they will find some fault with every animal they own, a good breeder will select a maiting that is complementary, strengthens the good points and doesn't double up the bad points (known as corrective maiting). The most important points are matched up first- maybe...good workers... good temperament...good colouring...plenty of pigmentation, perhaps by the time the first three requirements are covered by the maiting you start to compromise a little from there in and a dog that you are happy with in every other way is quite usable by keeping in mind not using a mate with the same fault. Then the advantage of breeding dogs over cattle and horses comes into it's own...you only breed on from the best results in the litter and the rest can still go to good working homes and be valued for their talents.
There are a couple of angles to looking at whether to breed from a dog or not...what are you trying to achieve from the maiting is the question. Bill will be the first to tell you (he doesn't have internet access so can't reply for himself) that he breeds working dogs first and foremost. The dog in the photo I named mother (because I forgot her name at the time of processing the photo) had a litter of pups while we were there and they were all well coloured with no excess of white and no amount to be worried about on the head. He had chosen the sire well, this is the other question when breeding from a particular dog, what do you breed it to. In this case he had bred her to a solid colour dog that had no problems with pigmentation so it was certainly unlikely the small amount of pink on her nose would have any affect...all the pups were fine. When breeding any animal if a breeder is honest with themselves they will find some fault with every animal they own, a good breeder will select a maiting that is complementary, strengthens the good points and doesn't double up the bad points (known as corrective maiting). The most important points are matched up first- maybe...good workers... good temperament...good colouring...plenty of pigmentation, perhaps by the time the first three requirements are covered by the maiting you start to compromise a little from there in and a dog that you are happy with in every other way is quite usable by keeping in mind not using a mate with the same fault. Then the advantage of breeding dogs over cattle and horses comes into it's own...you only breed on from the best results in the litter and the rest can still go to good working homes and be valued for their talents.
Tara the Blue bitch has produce a number of litters for Bill over her lifetime.
A truly successful brood bitch and working companion for him.
Bill has the added advantage of knowing the history of his dogs as his records show that her line goes back more than eight generations.
She has never produce a white pup nor blind or deaf pups, but Bill will readily admit not all of them were the greatest workers in fact a few were duds and had no ability at all, those he marked and found good homes as pets.
Here is another photo of Kool, She has always been my favorite, she is around four now and if I can ever get more room here, I will try and talk Bill out of her, though she has the best of everything, as in best bed, under the trees, good fresh water, right by his house in his back yard, it might take some good talking. But she would be worth it.
Click to view attachment
A truly successful brood bitch and working companion for him.
Bill has the added advantage of knowing the history of his dogs as his records show that her line goes back more than eight generations.
She has never produce a white pup nor blind or deaf pups, but Bill will readily admit not all of them were the greatest workers in fact a few were duds and had no ability at all, those he marked and found good homes as pets.
Here is another photo of Kool, She has always been my favorite, she is around four now and if I can ever get more room here, I will try and talk Bill out of her, though she has the best of everything, as in best bed, under the trees, good fresh water, right by his house in his back yard, it might take some good talking. But she would be worth it.
Click to view attachment
Just a sad footnote...poor old Tara passed away shortly after our visit, at 14 years of age (which suprised me, I didn't pick her as that old), she went to sleep on the back doorstep..and never woke up. A fitting end for a faithful friend and worker. Sadly missed.
So sad to hear, 14 years is a good old age...I bet the owners will miss her
Hi Belanus,
Just a couple of thoughts for you.
I have last year in my endeavours obtained a pup from a long victorian bloodline. This pup a bitch has all the traits you don't like but has briliant working qualities and temperament. I can also tell you that this dog was the lightest colored dog in the litter the rest being mostly darkly colored.
If I didnt try to breed her to a complemantary dog it would be a terrible waste of firstly a very good working dog but also of a very good bloodline that consists of only 7 dogs at present and possibly 8 to 10 more in a couple of weeks as this breeder didn't want to breed the bitch again but is to help me and another breeder out.
I don't think that a dog should be discounted just because of color.
Take my bitch, the Sire is a very dark blue merle bred by maddisons in victoria and belongs to a travelling drover. Can you imagine how good this dog must be to be able to literally handle different sorts of stock in different situations and conditions and the stamina. The bitch comes from working dogs on a farm in victoria with probably one of the best bloodlines in the country.
And you would discard this dog because of its color instead of selectively mating her to a selected Sire to improve the color and keep the bloodline of such a briliant working dog of which there are not many left in the country.
I have a solid red merle dog or a blue merle dog that would probably fix the color problem and produce pup's worthy of the bloodline they are from.
I further believe that a dog shoundn't be discounted because of color for the following reason. A color in a dog unless it is produced by a dominant gene won't have any effect on the following litter if bred with a suitable dog and considering the dam and sires coloring and the coloring of the other pup's in her first litter is is unlikely to be a dominant gene.
I think that this would be such a waste not to try to perserve such wonderfull working qualities and temperament and try to fix the color issue.
I hope that this will envoke some thought.
jack Wilja Koolies
Just a couple of thoughts for you.
I have last year in my endeavours obtained a pup from a long victorian bloodline. This pup a bitch has all the traits you don't like but has briliant working qualities and temperament. I can also tell you that this dog was the lightest colored dog in the litter the rest being mostly darkly colored.
If I didnt try to breed her to a complemantary dog it would be a terrible waste of firstly a very good working dog but also of a very good bloodline that consists of only 7 dogs at present and possibly 8 to 10 more in a couple of weeks as this breeder didn't want to breed the bitch again but is to help me and another breeder out.
I don't think that a dog should be discounted just because of color.
Take my bitch, the Sire is a very dark blue merle bred by maddisons in victoria and belongs to a travelling drover. Can you imagine how good this dog must be to be able to literally handle different sorts of stock in different situations and conditions and the stamina. The bitch comes from working dogs on a farm in victoria with probably one of the best bloodlines in the country.
And you would discard this dog because of its color instead of selectively mating her to a selected Sire to improve the color and keep the bloodline of such a briliant working dog of which there are not many left in the country.
I have a solid red merle dog or a blue merle dog that would probably fix the color problem and produce pup's worthy of the bloodline they are from.
I further believe that a dog shoundn't be discounted because of color for the following reason. A color in a dog unless it is produced by a dominant gene won't have any effect on the following litter if bred with a suitable dog and considering the dam and sires coloring and the coloring of the other pup's in her first litter is is unlikely to be a dominant gene.
I think that this would be such a waste not to try to perserve such wonderfull working qualities and temperament and try to fix the color issue.
I hope that this will envoke some thought.
jack Wilja Koolies
The question to breed or not to breed is always frought with a mulitude of questions.
If you have the choice and one is available breeding a merle back to a solid always has excellent results.
Even if the solid is a criptic merle(a solid which carries the merle gene)will still have excellent results.
6 years ago a vast majority of breeders were culling the solids and refused to breed with anything if it were not merle and the problem of deaf/blind pups increased.
It also made it impossibly for new breeders who had come by handy working Koolies with no history to breed with any security(no solids)
6 years ago and before that many didn't know where to find a Koolie, many didn't even know what a Koolie was.
It's good to see that all changing.
In order for new breeders even old breeders with good workers without history,(not a lot kept records) we need to continue locating old established bloodlines.
But we need to keep in mind just because yesterday you selected a good worker without history doesn't rule out tomorrow through the aid of DNA we discover your line is linked with a longer and more established line.
Eventualy we hope to identify all bloodlines and the discovery will have us hanging from the raffters.
So selecting from a bloodline with history is a first choice, but selecting a good worker that carries the desired traits you are looking for is still an excellent choice.
I quess what I'm trying to say is don't let color or lack of linage stop you from breeding from an excellent worker, it never stopped our great grandparents it shouldn't stop us.
If you have the choice and one is available breeding a merle back to a solid always has excellent results.
Even if the solid is a criptic merle(a solid which carries the merle gene)will still have excellent results.
6 years ago a vast majority of breeders were culling the solids and refused to breed with anything if it were not merle and the problem of deaf/blind pups increased.
It also made it impossibly for new breeders who had come by handy working Koolies with no history to breed with any security(no solids)
6 years ago and before that many didn't know where to find a Koolie, many didn't even know what a Koolie was.
It's good to see that all changing.
In order for new breeders even old breeders with good workers without history,(not a lot kept records) we need to continue locating old established bloodlines.
But we need to keep in mind just because yesterday you selected a good worker without history doesn't rule out tomorrow through the aid of DNA we discover your line is linked with a longer and more established line.
Eventualy we hope to identify all bloodlines and the discovery will have us hanging from the raffters.
So selecting from a bloodline with history is a first choice, but selecting a good worker that carries the desired traits you are looking for is still an excellent choice.
I quess what I'm trying to say is don't let color or lack of linage stop you from breeding from an excellent worker, it never stopped our great grandparents it shouldn't stop us.
Hi Belenus, good to see you back.
I think what we are saying is a koolie should look like a good working dog.
The Koolie is not a "recognized" breed for the showbench only. The people who founded this club's intention was to promote the working koolie not a show dog. Dogs with good skills and temperament should always be given priority over pretty looks. The colour, pattern or eye colour does not determine a good working dog. Koolies should be recognized firstly by their talent, personality, temperament and bidability.
We have in recent discussions with a gentleman in Melbourne who is considered in the dog world to be an expert on dog genetics, started working towards creating a structural ideal of a working koolie. His suggestion is that we photograph and study several different top working koolies so that with his help we can analyse what structure these dogs share that makes them the best of their breed in what counts, their working ability. This could then be used as a guide in breeding (if breeders wished) as an aid in seeing whether a dog is similar to the best of the breed.
This club will not seek showbench recognition only for the breed and it's talents to be ruined by people who want to make it pretty, or by people in ruling bodies that make stipluations upon us out of a whim when they know nothing of the breed. We must remain in control of our breed. We must learn by mistakes of the other breeds that go before us such as the kelpies, who now have two distinct sub breeds (for want of a better description) the pretty show dog that can't work and the robust healthy talented working kelpie - they are just so far apart it is not funny. These other breeds by concetrating on colour or fashionable shape, or discounting a perfectly healthly dog on a minor fault are breeding their gene pool so narrow that they are concentrating all their bad genes and creating problems such as shakers and HD.
We recognize that some people have their own preferences for colour, coat length etc and are happy for people to pursue that but we won't stipulate they must stick to particular standard colour etc or even overall size because different size koolies are used for different jobs.
Koolies are recognized by good stockmen and that remains our priority.
Remember no dog is perfect and you can only ever breed your best to your best and hope for the best, genetics is a game of chance and there is every chance
you will be disapointed.
Sorry if I ramble but it is the end of a busy day.
I think what we are saying is a koolie should look like a good working dog.
The Koolie is not a "recognized" breed for the showbench only. The people who founded this club's intention was to promote the working koolie not a show dog. Dogs with good skills and temperament should always be given priority over pretty looks. The colour, pattern or eye colour does not determine a good working dog. Koolies should be recognized firstly by their talent, personality, temperament and bidability.
We have in recent discussions with a gentleman in Melbourne who is considered in the dog world to be an expert on dog genetics, started working towards creating a structural ideal of a working koolie. His suggestion is that we photograph and study several different top working koolies so that with his help we can analyse what structure these dogs share that makes them the best of their breed in what counts, their working ability. This could then be used as a guide in breeding (if breeders wished) as an aid in seeing whether a dog is similar to the best of the breed.
This club will not seek showbench recognition only for the breed and it's talents to be ruined by people who want to make it pretty, or by people in ruling bodies that make stipluations upon us out of a whim when they know nothing of the breed. We must remain in control of our breed. We must learn by mistakes of the other breeds that go before us such as the kelpies, who now have two distinct sub breeds (for want of a better description) the pretty show dog that can't work and the robust healthy talented working kelpie - they are just so far apart it is not funny. These other breeds by concetrating on colour or fashionable shape, or discounting a perfectly healthly dog on a minor fault are breeding their gene pool so narrow that they are concentrating all their bad genes and creating problems such as shakers and HD.
We recognize that some people have their own preferences for colour, coat length etc and are happy for people to pursue that but we won't stipulate they must stick to particular standard colour etc or even overall size because different size koolies are used for different jobs.
Koolies are recognized by good stockmen and that remains our priority.
Remember no dog is perfect and you can only ever breed your best to your best and hope for the best, genetics is a game of chance and there is every chance
you will be disapointed.
Sorry if I ramble but it is the end of a busy day.
dear Belenus,
I was in no way trying to disagree with you for the sake of it. I firstly believe that the Koolie if to be a successfull breed should firstly be an exceptional working dog for the farmer or stockman. I think that this is where our future lies and to do this we need to go back and find lines of excellent working dogs. I also think that the serious breeder of working dogs also look at color and am sure that they don't wish to breed deaf or blind puppies either.
I think that it is way to early for the Koolie to be tied down to a standard
and don't necessarily believe that will ever be necessary. I think that if we continue to keep records of our koolies the Canine Council will when we can go back 8 or 10 generations will have no choice but to accept the breed.
I believe that DNA testing may set this standard for us, If and when they find a gene that denotes the Koolie as a Koolie.
I know several breeders of Koolies that breed working dogs first and they all have back orders for pup's not because they fit a certain look but because farmers NEED this kind of dog.
I have personally purchased a couple of Koolie pup's from breeders before I was directed to the good breeders by the Koolie Club and can show you a photo of a supposed Koolie bitch (very Pretty) hidding in a corner of an enclosure and being kept there forceably by 3 Austrlorp Chickens. This type of dog is no good to me and was returned to the breeder with comment.I need dogs that will move cattle and won't back down if the Bull in 3 inches taller.
Hope you understand where I'm coming from.
Jack Wilja Koolies
I was in no way trying to disagree with you for the sake of it. I firstly believe that the Koolie if to be a successfull breed should firstly be an exceptional working dog for the farmer or stockman. I think that this is where our future lies and to do this we need to go back and find lines of excellent working dogs. I also think that the serious breeder of working dogs also look at color and am sure that they don't wish to breed deaf or blind puppies either.
I think that it is way to early for the Koolie to be tied down to a standard
and don't necessarily believe that will ever be necessary. I think that if we continue to keep records of our koolies the Canine Council will when we can go back 8 or 10 generations will have no choice but to accept the breed.
I believe that DNA testing may set this standard for us, If and when they find a gene that denotes the Koolie as a Koolie.
I know several breeders of Koolies that breed working dogs first and they all have back orders for pup's not because they fit a certain look but because farmers NEED this kind of dog.
I have personally purchased a couple of Koolie pup's from breeders before I was directed to the good breeders by the Koolie Club and can show you a photo of a supposed Koolie bitch (very Pretty) hidding in a corner of an enclosure and being kept there forceably by 3 Austrlorp Chickens. This type of dog is no good to me and was returned to the breeder with comment.I need dogs that will move cattle and won't back down if the Bull in 3 inches taller.
Hope you understand where I'm coming from.
Jack Wilja Koolies
I agree with Silhouette & Jack.
To preserve the Koolie and have this breed thrive as healthy active working partners we must begin from the inside.
It is the structure, the skeletal and muscular components which are imperative in producing a sound and capable worker.
It is also the mental attitude, the character, the grit and heart.
But it is not about color, the only time color should be discussed is in relation to the negative affects of the merle gene.
Belenus I agree with you in part that all breeders need to breed to a standard
We need to study that which already exist, learn from our best and make their working abilities and structure our goal/standard.
To preserve the Koolie and have this breed thrive as healthy active working partners we must begin from the inside.
It is the structure, the skeletal and muscular components which are imperative in producing a sound and capable worker.
It is also the mental attitude, the character, the grit and heart.
But it is not about color, the only time color should be discussed is in relation to the negative affects of the merle gene.
Belenus I agree with you in part that all breeders need to breed to a standard
We need to study that which already exist, learn from our best and make their working abilities and structure our goal/standard.
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