Well, I thought I'd put this info up as it was something that I looked into early in the piece before I got my Koolies. Basically, it summarises the genetic combinations possible from a couple of the more common Koolie breeding combinations with regard to the merle gene - merle to merle and merle to solid.

So here we go.....

Click to view attachment

First thing to note is that you are after further information on merle genetics see the link to WKelpies page on this forum (very good, detailed info there).

Secondly, the above 'punnet squares' are a simple way a predicting what sort of genetic combinations (genotypes) and resulting colours/patterns (phenotypes) you can expect out of a particular breeding.

A quick interpretation of the above tells us that....

From a heterozygous (single) merle to heterozygous (single) merle breeding you can expect the following combination of pups:

25% Homozygous (double) merle (MM)
50% Heterozygous (single) merle (Mm)
25% Non Merle (solid) (mm)

From a heterozygous (single) merle to non merle (solid) breeding you can expect the following combination of pups:

50% Heterozygous (single) merle (Mm)
50% Non Merle (solid) (mm)

This might be food for thought for when you consider breeding....you will get the same amount of merle pups (long term averaged) from a single merle to solid breeding as from a single merle to single merle breeding and you avoid double merle pups!

Hope this is useful!

Brad

Isn't this great, so many people willing to share their information on genetic, you can't help but have successful litters is you follow their advise.
Big thanks megandbrad passing this on, I'll pin it so no one will miss it. :gleam:

Here is a link to an abstract on a paper about merle patterning in dogs that may be of interest to you. http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/abstract/0506940103v1

Thanks Jeanne Joy, I'll send that one onto Ann, maybe your might like to have shot of putting it into Laymen terms for us simple folk.
Ok just for me.
Question! Jeanne Joy, hope you can help, are Aussies bred merle to merle, if so are there defects like the deafness in Koolies.
Reason for asking is that I have always associated the blue eye with the light coated, lots of white Koolie types, this is believed to happen when merle are consistently bred to merle.
The majority of blue eye I have bred have been deaf, I have five.
Currently I produce good strong merle coloring, little white or solid and all have black or brown eyes, through the use of solid over merle.
I have associated this with a strengthening of my bloodlines, am I wrong to feel the two (eye color and merle) are connected?
Yet I have seen several very dark colored even solid Aussies with the blue eye and am mystified as to how the breed can produce this.
Hope you can shed some light.

Yes, merle Australian Shepherds are frequently mated together and yes, if the puppies are homozygous merle (extreme dilutes that appear white) they can exhibit auditory (hearing) and ophthalmologic (eye) abnormalities. Whenever possible, we prefer to mate merles to non merles, but sometimes it has been necessary to cross two merles together to produce very specific results for the goal we are trying to achieve.

In that case, it is necessary to cull.

There was a breeder in the early days who was under the impression that if he used dark colored, self-merle (no trim) Aussies, that he would avoid producing defective white puppies. He still produced them. Why?

Because every merle dog (with or without white trim) inherits two genes (one from each parent) either: one merle gene and one non-merle gene (heterozygous merles - normal coloration), OR two merle genes (homozygous merles - defective whites) OR two non merle genes (solid color).

Mating merle to merle - Simply put...when two merle dogs (with white trim or without white trim) are mated together, the puppies will inherit either merle genes or non merle genes from their parents. Some puppies will inherit a non-merle gene from each parent, resulting in a solid-colored puppy (with or without white trim). Other puppies will receive a non-merle gene from one parent and a merle gene from the other parent, resulting in merle puppies. The remaining 25 percent of the litter (one out of four puppies) have a chance of receiving two merle genes (one from each parent). When a puppy inherits two merle genes, the result is a double (defective) merle white. These puppies appear white and may or may not have a few merle or diluted spots. These individuals can have defective organs, and their hearing and sight are almost always impaired. In some cases, the eyes are not completely formed or the puppies have no eyes. The eye rims, lips, nose and pads are without pigment except where some merle marking is present.

Merles in disguise - On rare occasion, a dog can appear like a solid colored individual, but in fact be a cryptic merle (hidden). Cryptic merles have also inherited one non merle gene and one merle gene and will reproduce like any other merle.

White trim - The genes that produce white trim is different from the white that is inherited from the merle gene.

Hearing defects - hearing defects are associated with a lack of pigmentation, because pigment is necessary for sound vibrations to be translated between the cilium and the corresponding nerves in the ears.

Blue-eyed solid colors- The merle gene is also associated with blue eyes or eyes with splotched pigmentation. However we have produced blue-eyed solid colored Aussies, and solid colored Aussies that have one blue and one amber or brown eye...and know a family, The Mistretta's that breed blue-eyed tri (non merle) Aussies.

Rich, deep pigmentation - It is desirable to use individuals with deep, rich pigmentation for breeding especially for working dogs, because the deep pigmentaion protects dogs against sun damage. Our bloodline has always been known for deep rich colors. That is because we bred for them.

My father and Carol Ann done an excellent job in demystifying the mystery of color, genetics and anomolies in their upcoming book.

Here is a link to a site with some different examples of Aussie eye colors and body color.

http://www.ashgi.org/color/aussie_eye_color.htm

On some of the other pages you'll notice terminology used such as harlequin merles (or lavender tweeds); there is no genetic base for such terminology because these color patterns are a variation of the merle gene.

Here are a couple more pages that contain interesting pictures and links for information that may be helpful for your better understanding:

http://www.lethalwhites.com/merle.html

http://www.aussielads.com/merle_to_merle.htm

Sheila Schmutz, Ph.D. - Professor, at the University of Saskatchewan is one of the most reliable sources of genetic information.

http://skyway.usask.ca/~schmutz

I read your post again after I added the above links. It might be helpful to know the colors of the dogs you have bred together and do you know with certainty the colors of their parents?

JJ you are just too cool, great info, Leathalwhites site I found that is a good site for detering merle to merle breeding.
Will check out the other pronto.
You seem to be pretty much up to date in the genetics field, can you tell me if there is any truth to the rumour that some geneticist in Texas have discovered the Merle gene, would love to confirm that juicy piece of info.
Color is a bit of a dead end topic, only because we looked into identifying the types of colors Koolies have and got rather confused.
Koolies have been identified as red or blue merles since year 1 and even though some have opinion that true blue merles are this and Koolies are that, and so on make no difference.
We ran several different color types and most looking for Koolies thought we were producing a different breed and just calling it an Australian Koolie.
So we dropped the color selections and went back to plain old Blue & Red Merle, we are still having teething issues over Solid colors being Koolies, there are some breeders who feel that solid colors like whites need to be culled from a litter and that only those who are merled are Koolies.
I believe this is due to the out crossing through the fifties and sixties, graziers couldn't locate other Koolies so used what ever good working stock was available, such as kelpies, heelers even borders and smithfield.
So the resulting litters would produce some pups taking after the out cross and they culled them, that type of thinking has basicly continued even though generaly registered litters are from two Koolie parents, some still cull the solid colors.
But this feeling is changing through the public displays of successful litters produced from Merle to Solid matings, we have even seen a strengthening of the working abilities and I believe it is not a coincidence.
I don't normaly voice an opinion in genetics, I leave that to Ann, because I just can't seem to get my head around it all.
But I do have my theories and the litters that I have produced seem to indicate that I may not be far off the mark.
If you would like to see the colors of Tjukurpa pop over to koolies.org and have a look at our breed album, I haven't had time to add the last four litters which are a terrific step in the right direction but I am working on it.

Yes, Keith Murphy (and others) at Texas A&M University in College Station Texas, evaluated the SILV gene as a candidate for merle patterning.

In my estimation, as long as you breed merle to solid and select for strong, clear, rich colors you can concentrate on other important traits such as character (temperament), structural soundness and working ability.

I was trying to add a file "Developing a Bloodline of Distinction" I apologize, but my computer skills are anemic (maybe on life support).

We are totaly behind that type of thinking, but I feel it was ignorance to the effects of the merle gene that first saw the arrival of blind/deaf pups.
But we have always put ability and personality before color or even looks with some breeders, they couldn't care less if they owned the ugliest mutt, so long as it was the best worker, if fact a lot of drovers prefer their Koolies of the ugly side, they say it deters them being stolen, while on the long paddock.(droving)

Technical support: send an email to Localhost1 and he will fix it.

In regards to the discovery of the Merle gene is it possible to learn the results so we can provide the information for our members.

I finaly got out to those sites, just blows you away the amount of info that's available on the net and the photos! all worth a thousand words and so much better getting the message across, I shall be adding them to my genetics page.

I have contacted Dr. Shmutze as she is currently running a DNA testing program on coat and nose color, and have offered her the use of our Koolie DNA for this and any other programs she may feel the Koolie could assist, it means possible further information on the Koolie, so fingers crossed.
Thanks again for the great sites.

Absolutely - The paper is actually very technical. The first link I gave you
is an abstract for the results of that research. Here is a link that may be more relative at this time that explains some of the same type of research: http://skyway.usask.ca/~schmutz/merle.html

Out crossing back then obviously had an impact and in some case a negative one with the progeny taking on the harder personalities and moving away from traits first desired in the Koolie breed.
I kind of feel that if a person likes the form, type and look of a BC then breed them, or Kelpies and so on.
And yet I understand the stockman, grazier who are still trying to create or recreate the perfect worker, and they continue to use what ever bloodlines they find from what ever breeds to get what their after, but their after the ultimate worker, I’m just bias when I say they already have that in a Koolie .
I'm afraid they possess a greater understanding of the types of breeds they are working with, and many years of experience, I don't believe their type of breeding is entered into lightly.
I would be very reluctant to use any so called bench breed today due to the increase of genetic problems that you are now seeing appear, and these problems didn't occur over night but took many generations.
From what I have seen in the very short time of researching the Koolie and traveling around Australia, is the use of Kelpie and Heeler in general, not many Borders, I suppose even the short coated borders would have trouble with the heat and bur in their coat.
The rescues that come through are mostly kelpie, heeler x though I have had my fair share of BC, staffi and bully.
Of them all, they are still different in abilities, personality and temperament than the generation bred Koolies from two Koolie bloodlines.
I guess you have to ask yourself, are you after a good working Koolie, or just a good worker.
I got into Koolies to preserve Australia's oldest working breed and stop if from being bred out of existence through the use of out crossing, according to some old timers we are already to late.
I hope to prove them wrong.
Different actions for different needs at different times.

The last thing you want is for the Koolie to be absorbed by the Kelpie or any other breed. I'm sure you'll agree, while you need to breed for performance, you must not sacrifice the unique characteristics that distinguish Koolies apart from Kelpies and Cattledogs etc., or there is really no need for a breed club. The function of any breed organization is for the preservation and development of the breed.

Not all Koolies being registered have long recorded histories, unfortunately the majority of the old timers believed they had more important things to do like every day living than to record their breeding practices or results.
Much of what we have recorded has come from the source or their kin, there is probably a handful of old breeders who kept records and then only back as far as the 1940s and then mostly photos, some have records back to the sixties, which is why we understand the outcrossing that was done.
Most of the time we have to put together snippets of information to get a general understanding of what the stockman and graziers were doing at any give stage in history.
Take for instance, the theory that there may be Dingo influence in the Koolie, now through letters from old breeders conferring with each other across Australia we can pretty much conclude that Koolies are clear of Dingo influence.
Those that actually did breed Koolie to Dingo like Chris Howe of Shepparton Vic back in the early 40s recorded that it was a failure that the progeny were mulish and aggressive, refusing to work and none showed ability, it was not until he had bred that influence down to I believe it was around 1/18 (I don’t really understand the ratio’s) that they began to demonstrate any ability to work and more dilution again before Chris was satisfied with his effort.
He told me is wasn’t worth the trouble.
Now Chris was a renown Kennel and horse breeder, who traveled extensively around Australia and the world, he spread his finding where ever he met a man working stock, and to be sure there would have been others of his same mind, who would have run their own breeding programs and found the same results, this influence did not give them what they were after, so logically it is fair to assume they would have discontinued that effort, so we can be pretty near certain that Koolie don't carry Dingo blood.
DNA testing has mapped the Dingo marker, so in the future we will be able to check Koolies for this influence, but we still need to identify the Koolie marker and a whole lot more work is yet to be done before that will be possible.
Before his death in his late nineties, Chris suffered a terrible stoke and burnt down his records room, where he had stored not only his records but his father and grandfathers it was a tragic loss, not only too loose such a pioneer but such a wealth of history , all we have of his passage is his reputation and a few clippings from newspapers and letters, that he sent back from his constant trips around the world in search of the Koolie origins.
You can still meet people who talk with great respect for him and his achievements both in the working dog and horse world.

Breeders who have been breeding for over thirty years, (if we do our math puts them right in the seventies)after all the out crossing and cross breeding of the fifties and sixties, so much of the original Koolie bloodlines may have been diluted and possibly heavily influenced by the other introduced breeds, it is also to be understood that most breeders from this time also cultivated the belief that you only bred merle to merle, because they believed this was the only true Koolie, so you would have had a lot of culling a further reduction of the available gene pool.
Through the use of DNA we now understand the harm of constant merle to merle breeding. I believe it only diluted the gene pool further, I may not be wording this well, possibly JJ or Silhouette could moderate me.
So we move to the present day where we have access to much more information than our predecessors had, able to look at each individuals effort upon the whole breed and hopefully rectify or continue which ever the case may be those effort that were made before us.
I do believe it is only in the future that we will discover and understand the Koolies past.

It wouldn't seem reasonable that sheepmen who put thousands of miles of fence to keep Dingos out and away from their sheep would then turn around and use them for breeding.

The experience you site of Chris Howe's progeny of the litter resulting from a Dingo cross is very similar to what has been reported when wolves are crossed to domestic dogs, mainly the arctic breeds for sledding.

With careful breeding you can (it has been done) re-establish true Koolie type. It is done however through generations. We have always said "Building a Bloodline is Like Building a Cathedral. It takes Generations....Generations of People."

I'm with you on that opinion JJ
Skeeter what you say has merit, and we do need to chart our goals in line with the needs that first sparked the creation of the Koolie, their uniqueness of working ability, personality and temperment that's what drew most of us to use these guy, we don't want to loose that.

As JJ said it takes a while, or longer.
Interesting that the merle gene in Koolies is the link to blindness/deafness , (correct me PLEASE if I misread/misunderstood)In ACDs it is predominant in the red heelers and to a lesser extent the blue coloured.

Has any one used a Mendelian expectation chart with litters to track a trait? Might be a bit hard with so many variations (colour, eyes, stature) but might be worth it to track some traits and estimat the outcome

Hey Lawson you'll have to explain what a Mendelian expectation chart is first.
Or at the very least explain it to me.

OK Biology Yr 11 ( I think) if you use the simple (basic,basic) rules of genetics you can help take the guess work from the traits that offspring from a mating may be born with. I had to look up some of it to remind me (Yr 11 biol was a LOOOONG time ago and even longer since I worked with genetics/vets) It goes something like this:

SIRE DAM OFFSPRING
1 B B equals B B B B
2 B A equals AB AB AB AB
3 AB AB equals A AB B AB
4 A AB equals A A AB AB
5 B AB equals B AB B AB
6 A A = A A A A

This is the six ways in which a pair of determiners can be mixed, mixes of 1,2 and six are the only mixes where the exact mix can can determined. This is subject to hereditary traits, stronger gene pools and such , but given the known histories comming to light with many dogs and the foresight in listing colouring, percentages of white, eye colour,coat types,etc the foundations are set for the looking at what you might get from a mix.

Mendels LawThis gives you some info, then it gets really "techno"and scary

Mendel's First Law - . The law of "Segregation of Characteristics". The alleles of a gene pair segregate from each other during meiosis; each gamete has an equal probability of obtaining either member of the gene pair.
The law of averages, one white dog one black dog, you will get black dogs, white dogs and black and white dogs

Mendel's Second Law - The law of "Independent Assortment". The alleles of different genes assort independently. two black dogs, but one black dog is from white mother, you will get black, white, and black and white but black will be in the majority.

Mendelian Ratio - A ratio of offspring phenotypes that reflect the operation of Mendel's laws.

And that kiddies is todays biology/gentics lesson
CONFUSED yes it gets really scary but the basic chart remains the steadfast basis for detemination of traits ot he six variatents of it.
THis really tested my memeory and I even had to check it with a animal tech friend

Hi all

Great to see some good discussion going on....we can only learn by laying it out on the table and chewing it over.

I understand the theories of the merle gene and what the mathematic formulas say should happen (although I believe you would have to produce over 200 pups from the same maiting to get close to the number of results the percentages predict due only to the vagaries of chance). But and there is always one of those....as we build information on our database, talk to breeders and increase our own experiences it appears that generally koolies don't have the regular occurance of problems the predictions give us. Many breeders of many years claim they have little problem, most will admit they have had some, but nothing like what the numbers add up to. Most of those though, I believe, do select for good rich coloured dogs and so perhaps have without realising it developed their own formula along the lines of Jeanne Joy.(We bred several litters merle to merle prior to any knowledge of the problem and apart from a couple of puppies that obviously had more white that desirable, had no problems like blindness and deafness, so it is possible). There are koolies out there (although I feel very much the minority) that are getting paler and paler and when asked we are advising people to select for darker colours and those with the pale merles we strongly suggest going to a solid dog. Many people won't accept that merle to merle is a no no, but promoting dark colour dogs is a good compromise. Education does work and in the last couple of years members are taking on board what we are saying through the newsletter and I can see them moving in the right direction.

I am very much for positive reinforcement for members (and koolies) and I think one of the things we can learn from "recognized breeds" is that just slapping rules in place banning colours etc does the breed no good, compared to educating the breeders to the reasons why and seeing the titanic start to turn of it's own accord. (Mind you I am very concerned at one breeder who has included no less than 3 yellow dogs on their website, claiming they are koolies. In all the dogs we have seen and registered I have seen no more than 2 yellows...how can one person in the breed less than 2 years come up with 3??? I would have to say a yellow koolie is not pure and wonder if this isn't the first colour we should not recognize....thoughts please!!)

One thing we have learnt from the DNA so far is that we have good genetic diversity, outcrossing will not be a requirement for a very long time. But if we continue to accept C section dogs (crosses) it will bring would-be pure koolie owners into the fold, they can see what the straight guys are producing and hopefully the next time they aquire a dog...they go section A. In the meantime people that are happy crossing are still part of the koolie experience and can putter on with their own thing. If someone feels they "need" to outcross at least the job is half done using a section C dog.

Skeeter at this stage, I don't believe the koolie is decended from the BC, but that they share a common ancester in the blue merle collie. The recent DNA trials for ivermectin resistance held in America found that the mutant gene causing problems in a largish percentage of BC was created in the early 1800's in Britain, of all the tests we submitted of koolies none tested positive for this gene. This would indicate that the koolie if decended from the same stock, diverged before the BC became known. (It is present in Aussie Shepherds as well. The problem caused by the gene is that dog worming products containing ivermectin was killing dogs with the mutant gene...not good for the producers of the drug, who backed the study. The result is there is now a DNA test for the mutant gene).

We still have a lot of upgrading to do to the club website, particularly information on breeding and genetics (and training), if any of you would like to put an article or diagram together for inclusion it would be greatly appreciated. I have made a small start, but want it pretty well complete before it is put up. Any input greatfully accepted..

My first litter produced a yellow female and male, they were born white and colored up to a pale buttercup yellow, like a Labrador.
The father had no history and we believed by his looks that he probable had kelpie in him, I know Kelpies do produce a yellow dog and again my pups did have a very diluted small smattering of red spotting, I thought there may have been Heeler behind him as well, though none of the pups ever demonstrated any of their obvious traits, the father was registered in "C" and I have since bred three generations from that line, the second time using "B" male then the third generation I used a sixth generation solid male “A” registered and had terrific results, so I guess that seals in for me.
When we began, selections of strong bloodlines was few and greatly distanced, but thanks to the club and the data base that selection is growing and if my resent litters are any indication of things to come, I'd say the Koolie has a very strong future ahead.

Here is a link that may better help you understand the role of pigment in hearing. The genetic information about the white trim is not current, but you can overlook that. http://www.asca.org/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabid=3224

While you may or may not understand the complexities of gene mapping etc...the good news is the Classic (Mendelian) principals are still applicable in breeding coat color.

While you may or may not understand the complexities of gene mapping etc...the good news is the Classic (Mendelian) principals are still applicable in breeding coat color.

I'm including (or at least I think I am) an article that gives an idea of how we developed our bloodline...in doing so we always kept in mind that genetic diversity is imperitive for producing dogs with healthy immune systems.

Breeding sound, healthy dogs is one of the most important contributions a breeder can make to a breed. One of the most important books you should add to your club library is a book by the late Dr. George Padgett, who by the way authored the chapter on Genetics for the book my sister and father just wrote.

Control of Canine Genetic Diseases (Howell Reference Books) by George A. Padgett. The information should be beneficial in helping Koolie breeders in develop and maintain a hardy, healthy breed.

I have to say… with out a doubt this is some fantastic reading. I am thrilled to see such wonderful discussion on this topic. Let us keep it coming… nice to see people sharing without condemning….

I will be the first to admit that I am not a genetics expert and having Jeanne Joy and Silhouette to help explain all this is a real benefit. Tjukurpa, despite what you may think you have become a real asset in your ability to articulate the information that you have acquired on the Koolie. You have helped this breed as much as any 30 year breeder. You have a real love for this breed and it shows in your level of commitment to the research. To all of you a huge thank you… it makes things easier for people like me… here in the United States, someone who is trying to be a positive representative of the breed.

It is great to learn that things are beginning move towards the goal that the club has established from the beginning. The club set out to educate, stimulate and register the Koolie and its owners; and the club has succeeded. The club has never tried to regulate the members or the dogs… only to insure that everyone one involved follows the ethics and ideals that the club was formed for. This kind of good discussion just shows that we are trying to make this breed successful and that even the breeders who have no “genetics expertise” have made good choices in their breeding program by breeding for rich dark coloration and discussing their breeding options with others.

I would have to say that this is a great thread and I am thrilled to see it….

Thanks to Silhouette and Tjukurpa I am going to get a first hand chance to meet the guys at the DNA lab and see the process. I am so excited.... What an honor....thanks...

Karolina Koolies

SO is there any ideas where the "yellow" comes from? Is there any dingo in the history, or is it a quasi mutant gene (like the gene that causes albinos). This stuff is so interesting I love to see the sires/dams pics and then the pups pics for all the dogs on the site. Its a plethora of surprises and colour bursts.

To be honest, I don't think they are koolies at all, but someone taking an opportunity to exploit the breed not nuture it. The person I refer to is not a member of this club. The one or 2 we have seen have probably been decended from a (working line) kelpie in which they appear on ocassion...these have perhaps come from those not so successful lines with dingo, who knows. These look like a totally different breed to me.

Have been out all day so haven't had a chance to follow Jeanne Joys links, but look forward to checking them out tomorrow.

I am no expert, so if you all take notice and learn from what we are discussing, you can pick me up if I stray later...please.

Now is the time to begin asking the hard questions. What is the definition of the true Koolie? What are the qualities that contribute to it? What direction do you want the Koolie to go?

As I mentioned before we "Breed by the Yardstick of Performance." It is important to remember however that Performance alone cannot be the only criteria, because any number of breeds can render an outstanding performance, but without true breed type you don't have a breed.

Historic research and photos from 40 to 50 years ago are invaluable in defining original Koolie type (form and function). Your historic research will help describe the unique function (form follows function) that caused stockmen to choose Koolies over Kelpies (or whatever breed for that matter).

There are several factors contributing to the fact that modern Australian Shepherds (commonly found in the breed ring) resemble, but are not built like the early foundation dogs. Early foundation Aussies had to be able to go from a walk to a dead run instantaneously in order to stop a runaway. They were built to 'turn on a dime,' like the American Quarter Horse. We've always used a slogan "Quarter-type" of the dog world. The type of structure of the foundation Aussies is different from Aussies that are bred to exhibit maximum 'ground-covering'reach and drive in a balanced trot in the showring.

Although (ideally, the premise behind the show ring), winners in the breed ring should be able to function in their historic role better than any other specimine of the breed. Unfortunately, it just isn't the case. In the early days, everyone competed in both stock competition and the breed ring. It is much more specialized now. I really respect people who try to maintain the versatility of the breed by competing in both arenas but it is very, very difficult.

I agree about the comformation and work format being compatable...there is too much out breeding of traits in dogs to met the comformation or "standard". This can be good in the case of HD and other physically dibilitating traits but not so in others. But this is OT(off topic) a bit ,perhaps we need to take up new topic within the forum elswhere??.

This is one reason I don't want the koolie to go to the show ring. To me our show ring is the stock yards, paddocks and saleyards. They have survived in this arena without intervention and I don't think the show bench could make any improvements. I am hoping that by working with a very nice gentleman we have come to know who has an excellent eye for understanding the structure of a dog and what its function is, to be able to put together an ideal of type, without setting a standard as such. This would describe such things as lenght of leg, rib, should angle that type of thing. Any move to dictate colour, ear set etc will only put off those that hold the largest breeding and working numbers...the farmers. (I think the majority would balk at yellow dogs though...)

PS don't woory about where the conversation takes place....just keep it going!

I was just concened about taking it "off topic" too far. On the matter of standards, I too am against it, as I stated ;for reasons other than the health and wellbeing of the animal.( this issue does extend to all animals)

I think society forgets the primary reason we have dogs and how they became what they are today...evolutionary necessity. That is why the breeds are diverse and far reaching in complexity of coat, sizes, attitudes, manner, colouration,abilities etc. Yes,some have evolved to be "lap dogs" but once upon a time they (or part of their heriditary breed) had a meaningful purpose for being what they are..it may have been environamental that caused them the have a long thick coat(Peks, Afghans), or the fact that they lived in a cold area with limited food and many waterways that they are large and have an affinity with water ( Newfoundlands)or that the area was mountianous and cold, and they were entrusted with stock watching (Maremmas, St Bernards.)

Over time the "breeding out" of some traits to eliminate those deemed "undesirable" has greatly influenced many breeds often to the detriment of their true purpose. Colour, ear proximity, etc ;as Silhouette mentioned; are traits which do not need change or standardisation (with any breed) I have not heard of any breed which has problematic issues with colour ( except alibinism or pure white breeds but pure whites are that way for a REASON)or ear proximity or such.

Dogs were not meant to ONLY be pranced about in a ring, NOTHING AGAINST THOSE WHO DO IT My mum was a breeder of Aussie Terriers and Peks and I did *GULP* junior handling

But for the betterment and continued stability of all breeds, their true traits and abilities have to be encouraged, utilised and advised. If that means that working dogs can compete in yard work, sheep trials, etc in leiu of comfirmation, as it is today, it would be a wonderous thing. Earning the same awards but on a different scale, not based on coat, size, gait, etc but the working ability and skills which are endemic to thier breed.

Even lap dogs evolved with a purpose, to keep those laps warm!! The instinct is still strong in some, like our little chi's they love to cuddle up anywhere you sit/lay down...whatever weather, hot or cold! And radiate there own heat... But this is how people kept warm in centuries past.

Are awards an important thing? Or are the accolades of your peers as you successfully complete an exercise in stock handling with your dog enough? Many of the farmers who have bred koolies for decades count their successes by the number of stockmen who seek them out each time they need a new dog, a good indicator a breeder is doing a good job. If members feel awards are important, they could still be structured to suite our own needs awarding good skills and temperament maybe.

Getting back to color and the merle gene. We decided early on to disqualify sable (red with black nose and black tipped hair) as a non acceptable color; because sable merles can be difficult to differentiate from non merle sables, threfore difficult to avoid breeding merle white puppies. The gene for copper (tan) trim is recessive to that which produces sable and is dominant. For that reason Aussies with copper trim don't produce sable.

Some Aussie breeders have reported getting 'yellow' puppies and even brindle. In all my years, more importantly in all my parents years of breeding Aussies and even further back to Juanita Ely's years have never produced brindles. In my thinking these dogs must throw back to some other breed that was introduced (knowingly or not) to the gene pool.

Here is another genetic link that also includes a link to The Canine Inherited Disorders Database that I think will be helpful to you.

http://www.workingdogs.com/genetics.htm

Hi Again,

I agree with most that has been said, except the outcrossing to any other species.

I have gone to great lenghts to get the right bloodlines to continue breeding with so that the Koolie will prosper into the next gereration and so on.
I believe that outcrossing will produce Koolie look alikes that may be seen as Koolies and registered as such by some people. I am a strong believer in working ability and am therefore going to breed for working ability first taking color into acount. I think that is the way we should proceed as the Koolie is after all a working dog.
I fear that if to much is done about color that the working ability will suffer and the breed will suffer, I think that if all the serious breeders breed for working types first then when the pool of these types of dogs is great enough the color will follow. I fear that some breeders will look at mainly color and neglect the working ability that sets this breed above other working breeds.

I would after saying that offer thanks for all the information given here
specially the links from Jeanne Joy very helpfull information and very educational.

thanks

Jack Wilja Koolies

This is some fantastic information and to think that we are lucky enough to have such strong breeders and people who have years of experience at hand to offer their thoughts and advice. It is something I am very thankful for. Keep the posts coming. Thanks.

Karolina Koolies

We have gained most of our breeding experience in dairy cattle, with some success (although our one family of koolies are up to 5 gen) the numbers you work with breeding a 250 plus herd gives you a chance to experience the results of a wider range of breeding choices. It is 4 years before you see the results of those choices whereas with dogs you know well before then what mistakes you have made. Anyway I waffle....what I am trying to get at is that many people have made the mistake of breeding with only one trait in mind, in cows it is often milk volume (an understandable decision) but this often brings with it low protein % and an animal that is very frail and hasn't the stamina to stand up to the rigors of winter or calving every 12 months, also overly large udders that cannot carry the volume of milk she is genetically programmed to make. So when breeding other traits have to be considered.

With koolies I agree wholeheartedly that working ability is the number one priority, I would add temperament and biddability to that also as they are the things that stand the breed out. But we are cursed by the merle gene and so it has to be considered, other things such as coat length are relevent to the area you are working in, Southern Victoria would appreciate a thick or medium coat but Northern Queensland really need a slick cool coat. As the register and club evolves breeders can look further afield than perhaps their own stud if the combination is not quite right with the bitch, daughters can then always be put back to their own stud. The advantage dog breeding has over cattle is the short gestation and the multiple offspring to breed on from. If you have chosen your sire and dam well, there should be one or two that you would be happy enough to breed on from, the rest should make excellent workers for someone and don't have to be 'perfect' colour to fullfil that role. If there is nothing in the litter that to you exceeds the parents or has the potential to, then you must reconsider the pros and cons of the maiting and make adjustments for the next one. That said what is not 'perfect' in your eyes can still possibly improve the breed if another breeder has not achieved with their own dogs the standard you have and your results may be a welcome improvement for someone else.

I guess that what I am saying is breeding is not cut and dry and a whole lot of factors need to be taken into account but with a priority on each and that what may not be ideal in your eyes may still have something to offer to someone else and the breed.

Well said.

The first post there from "Megandbrad" seems familiar, is that not a post from Wkelpies? The genetic talk is very much her expertise and it refers to her genetics site......

No Leecos
Meg and Brad are Koolie owners here in Australia who have an interest and good understanding of genetics.

AAHHH ok sorry i did not know that, nice of them to refer to wkelpies genetics site. There is definatly good information there.

Information is everywhere to be collect.
Some love to research it while others experience it.
As much as I love genetics and I know eventually it will reveal all the truth.
You can’t pass up decades of experience and the Koolie Club has that in trumps in our treasured breeders who have been breeding Koolies since 1945, some with bloodlines reaching back over 100 years.
Who have created the path not just walked upon it.
Genetics can identify the course but never the reasoning or the motivation, you can only get that from those who lived if and put breath into it, who were apart of it and it only happened here in little old Australia, anywhere else their just a pale copy.

I am sorry Tjukurpa, i might be misunderstanding your post, it seemed to me that you were saying that only people in Australia are knowledgeable enough to have a right to discuss breeding methods and genetics because......they have experienced it. Please please correct me if i misunderstood that because I would have to disagree STRONGLY with that statement. Although there is no argument that Australia is the land of "firsts" when dealing with Coolies, those that have gone thru the trouble to import their dogs went thru a fair amount of research prior to aquirying the dogs, I find that almost more responssible then learning as you go thru experience. Being well informaed before starting a breeding program as opposed to relying on others, :more experienced" to so for you. but again i can be misunderstanding what it was you were trying to say.

Obviously the message is that there is a huge resource here of breeders with decades of experience breeding Koolies who have been available to pass on their knowledge on breeding Koolies as opposed to only having access to the theories of genetics and likely outcomes. Koolies and most other breeds are unique in some ways from the masses, having breeders with decades of experience dealing with those differences available to mentor new breeders is a huge benefit. Couple this with the resources of theory that are also available here and the ability to physically experience the breed thoroughly before getting involved does put Aussies one step ahead.

Leecos please don't read into posts things that aren't there, TJ never made the statement no one else had a right to discuss breeding and genetics.

In relation to the past 3 posts, it is fair to say isn't it that the Koolie differs somewhat from other merle breeds in how the merle behaves, as does merle genetics behave different in other breeds.

For example a lot of the longterm breeders were breeding well before the genetics was available, either written/researched or accessible to the breeders therefore these breeders had to rely on what they saw happen from experience when breeding, & part of this was the merle to merle practise, & many of these accept that excessive white pups are culled, there is no secret there & this could be reduced by chosing dogs with strong merling in regards to larger patches/coverage of the dark base colour as merle to merle = reduction in colour pigment in hair & skin, but targetting merles with strong base colour coverage this would reduce reduction opposed to a very diluted weak merling mating.

Is it true that when tracing back the ancestory of the breed it was discovered that the German Tiger was unique in that it didn't seem to have the merle to merle problems as expected? I haven't personally looked into this but I have heard it a number of times.

If this is true it should explain somewhat how the Koolie, & some lines of Koolie can be unique to other breeds in merle behaviour BUT coming back to the merle problems...they are still there, maybe not in the degree of other breeds but they do still exist & whilst they do exist any continual concentration of merle & taking this for granted IMO will lead to the merle behaviour changing in the breed as ALL breeds evolve especially when bred in mass look at many of the registered breeds out there & how they have changed from their original or over the past 30yrs & therefore leading us to the dicey situation as exists in other breeds with merle, so I think it is our job now as breeders to research the history of especially how merle behaves & a lot of this comes from chatting & recording info from longterm breeders but also using the genetic literature out there to move away from all risk altogether BUT here again poses a problem as how can everyone ensure that a solid dog is exactly that?

I am sure there are actually litters out there solid to merle that are actually merle to merle as the solid is actually a genetic merle, this is where our DNA test is crucial IMO as I can see a big mess if people get what they think is solid & breed it to a MM or even a Mm, if it isn't true solid in that is carries no copy of the merle gene...then it has the same affect as breeding another merle to it, one can only hope that the strength of the merle in that only a few hairs are affected can reduce the negative outcome.

Reply to Leecos

But consider just for one honest moment, what if the information you researched was misinformed, incorrect, misleading or god forbid corrupt.

Not saying it is, just consider the impact upon a whole breed if new breeders were supplied the wrong information, like their true origins or parentage.

Before 2000 you could not find single piece of information about the Koolie on the Internet and only rarely in a few very old books, but even then you needed to know what your looking for, because they were original referred to as German Collies, so doing reference research for a Koolie or Coolie or even German Coolie returned nil information or sketchy at best, you found references to the breed when following stockman diaries, bush poetry, German immigrants, Scottish descendants, even descendants of other Australian working breeds, you put the pieces together to form the information so readily access and, (many prominent authors have received or retrieved their information from our research, just check the record dates) utilized by everyone today and it is by no means finished, but we are lucky, because Australia has only been here for 200 years and we have thoroughly recorded many events, like the first dog breeds into Australian, the first sheep, cattle the first overland drive, all these items of information help to flesh out the Koolie, it’s not all about the genetics and it is all about Australia.

Sorry off on a tangent, back to post.

In Australia we can afford the time to get to know breeders to travel and see first hand, not rely purely on just hear say or a bunch of genetic garble that can be picked up any where.
Many of us have waited years, meeting and checking and comparing and making mistakes and gathering experience before moving into breeding.

I am not interested in attacking your views, your breeders or your dogs.

My only motivation is to supply honest, correct sound facts when they are available and theories/speculations for people in general to discuss and mull over, all in order to protect my chosen breed and keep our readers informed and engaged.

Here in Australia it is still a big discussion as to what a Koolie even is, sure you have a dog with merle, sure you have a type that’s similar,(not meaning you! personally) but all working breeds are similar, in formation and character, is there truly a Koolie, a breed that can stand alone and breed for hundreds of years, true to type as so many recognised breeds, like the Siberien Husky for one have done, or will we discover in order to retain the working animal we have come to call the Koolie breeders will need to inject other influences regularly, we can’t say, our records show they have only been around since 1836 possibly sooner no older than 200 years so I guess it could be seen that the koolie could be referred to a breed in the making. (just don’t say that to an Australian.)

Did you know that many Koolie breeders for many decades had every 4 generations introduced an out cross from other Australian working breeds into their bloodlines, now there would be many reason why, some felt it might have strengthened the breed, others possibly believed it protected them from the white gene, or merle gene affect, others simply because their granddad and dad did it before them, or they just couldn’t locate a good Koolie.
We just had this very discussion posed in our newsletter and the feed back has been very enthusiastic.

I know our breeders in the USA were so interested about the Koolie breed that they flew over to Australia to see first hand,(I know not everyone can do it) it wasn't that they distrusted our information, but they understood, that the breed according to world standards is only in its infancy, getting off the ground and they wanted to learn first hand about the breeds diversity and uses, before they could feel confident in breeding and introducing the breed in America

In the short but full 7 years of the Koolie club we have recorded our share of breeders of profit, backyarders, under the radar, who don’t give a dam about care, ethics or honesty, who are purely driven by money.
And in our own way we supply information on breeders whom we are aware of who breach our code of ethics, to those who care to ask, we don’t advertise it, we don’t campaign about it, we don’t launch full pages about them on the Internet.
Though personally if I could do it legally I would do it in a heartbeat and I wish all breeds could do it.

Everyone, obviously would like those types of breeders to straighten out their acts but there is near to nothing we can do, except caution potential buyers to seek their information from the source, until the Koolie club of Australia’s launch no one even knew what a Koolie was with in Australia except those who had them, certainly none out side of Australia knew of the breeds existence, and yet we now have so many so called experts who seem to have blossomed over night, it just has to make you think, and if it doesn’t then that’s your choice.

I’m not saying you or your breeder/s are what ever, how would I know, you are a name on a public forum, I don’t know your motives, or motivations, but I’d like to get to know you further as with any one who comes here seeking what ever your seeking.

I hope that lengthen monolog clears the air for you, but if you still have concerns you may find a PM might help, not just to me but anyone on the board, they have all had experience with Koolies and breeders and they all have their own opinion.
They may feel more comfortable relating to you in private instead of on the world stage.

Just a thought!

reply to Silhouette, " I wish everyone would read all the post like you do, thanks.

reply to Mushoz, " There is a test for the Merle gene, so we don't have to breed blindly(sorry for that pun) any more"

And one theory is that we may run the risk of breeding Koolies back to all solids and loosing the merle completely (is that even possible?) if we don't discover the correct balance.
Solids are necessary, and solids who carry the merle gene but how often should we use them, I believe, still needs to be discovered.
What as breeders should we be aiming for in our litter.
The holy grail was a full litter of merles, but maybe more realistically we should look at a solid and a couple of merles with white undercoats and the rest strong merles, to insure that we have merles to which the solids can breed healthy litter.
I know that fs you put a Solid with out the merle gene over a non defective MM(this is a nearly all white with two wall eyes Koolie which has perfect hearing and sight) you will get nothing but merles, good strong coloured merles, but it is my opinion that this is the only way you are going to produce this out come.
When a solid with or without the merle gene is put over a merle with white undercoat or coloured the resulting litter will have a solid (one colour or Bi, (a black and tan or black and white) or tri (black, white and tan)

We have to Remember that the koolie is a merging of solid black and tan collies from Scotland over merle collies and German Tigers which as yet claim they are not of Collie decent.
And consider what other influences have been introduced to shape or continue working bloodlines, border collies, kelpies, cattle dogs etc.
We don't have all the answer yet, but we are working on it together, guys, together.

The furture of the Koolie is still very much on the drawing board

so does anyone disagree with what I said? (coz I'm learning all this too)

As I'd hate to be talking out of my bum....

In Koolies, compared to some other breeds, there seems by some old-time farm breeders (perhaps because they didn't know that *most* of the dog world didn't approve of merle x merle breedings or that there was a potential problem there) a tendency to cull their whites only when they realised they were deaf or noticed they didn't work well.

This makes me wonder whether in some cases the dogs were partly or unilaterally deaf, as complete deafness obviously does not occur in all MMs, and nobody realised.

I am not a breeder (yet), so hope this doesn't offend those more experienced. This just where my thinking is going at the moment...

One of the reasons I am interested, personally, in being a Koolie breeder in the future, is because of this possibility of outcrossing, which seems helpful for maximising long-term soundness of the breed. I'm influenced by Ray Coppinger on the concept of breeds. I think that 'purity' is probably not as valuable as some believe, certainly it has no value of itself apart from the features of the individuals of the breed. It is probably a mistake to think that abnormal genes are rare. They are pretty common, we probably all carry some resessive genetic *blips* and it is only inbreeding that would make them a problem. And while we have the capacity at the moment not to breed too closely, within breeds genetic diversity constantly, inevitably reduces.

So I think there is much to be gained from occasional outcrossing, obviously to dogs with characteristics you want in your line. And in Koolies, because we aren't breeding to a physical standard (I guess we all have our own internal 'standard", but it's doesn't have to be the same as any other breeder's) if that introduces some variability, is that a problem?



Also, if a MM had problems with its eyes or ears, bred to a mm, producing Mm pups, would they be at greater risk of problems than other Mms? I assumed they would be *normal*.

& defects don't affect all MM's either as there are a number of MM's that have no defects mnay however whilst the hearing isn't affected the eyes are with wall eyes & irregular shaped/positioned pupils.

The risk is still present however whichever way you look at it & whichever means you try to combat it.

Genetics can identify the course but never the reasoning or the motivation, you can only get that from those who lived if and put breath into it, who were apart of it and it only happened here in little old Australia, anywhere else their just a pale copy.


I apoligize if i read into this post wrong, the part about "little old australia" and "anywhere else their just a copy" got me confused for a second, sorry. I was asking if i got it wrong in my last post, i wanted to make sure that was not what she was saying....And unfortunatly yes there is a chance to be misinformed, misled and given corrupted information, but those chances are as real in Australia as it is for me over seas. I could live in Australia and still find myself in contact with people that will not be honest about their breeding stocks true origins and parentage. People that will cover tracks as best as possible or be ruthless in trying to destroy reputaions are present for you and me both regardless of where we live. And thank you for restating your intentions via my breeders, dogs and views, i really appreciate it I respect all three greatly and fell very passionate about them :) And I really wish i could have coffee meetings and brunch with my breeders and let all the dogs play together, I would if I could, but the phone, internet conference meetings with multiple breeders, in 3 different countries and the sharing of videos, pictures, registration papers, pedigree information and documents thru the past 2 years of been as informative and beneficial as for those able to do it in person. i do plan a trip in the future but right now I am starting a business with my husband that demands not only our time and effort but most of our money. But I do go there often in my dreams..lol Like I said the research I have done is very extensive and I could see how it could be refered to as "a breed in the making" and my dogs are part of that making being that they are from Australia. I have made my introduction about a year and a half ago on this forum, i also passed on a link to my web site to you Tjukurpa and I came here seeking discussion about coolies without censorship or back stabbing after your invitation. If I can answer any direct questions for anyone please do ask, i did not think there was any doubt as to my identity or motivations.

Genetic testing is something being done by most breeders even if different clubs are apparently using different companies, it does have its benefits for merle type recognition and will help in the reduction of defects. And everyone will I am sure be keeping a eye out for all new information and break thrus that happend and spread it around the coolie community.There has been many ways to record parentage and breeding results, DNA is still new and fresh to even the researchers, my opinion is to not put all my eggs in the same basket, or throw eggs at people not doing it or doing it via other companies for different reasons (merle typing) because nothing beats good old fashioned documents (registrations, 3,4,5 generations recorded by hand, pictures, official papers from transfers) to tell me that one "said" coolie is not of breeding stock due to unknown parentage or origins. Research can be done from anywhere in the world now days, and done right you would be surprised what you can find. Like with everything, but especially in the movie business, it is all about who you know and my mentors are very knowledgeable. Ultimatly, with merle typing and the best motivations in the breeding programs we set for ourselves, the dogs will speak for themselves. Thank you for such a fun time and must go now it is late here for me, and there is a full days work waiting for me in the morning..thxs 2 all :)