Yes, the fact that not all MMs have problems probably *reinforces* those breedings, I suspect. If all those dogs were very *faulty* then that would be a big punishment to those who bred them and they probably wouldn't risk producing them.



And I don't think there's any getting away from the fact that traditional farm breeders are mostly not as concerned with culling by euthanasia as many of us now interested in the breed. My boy's litter was culled from 6 to 3 soon after birth based on markings (there were no whites, but they didn't want a lot of pups, so they picked the prettiest). I find that horrifying, but I don't think it's unusual with station dogs.

Mushoz it is true that in the research that we have been doing it seems quite likely that the German Tiger is part of the mix of the origin of the breed. We have heard accounts from people who tell us for one a story of soldiers after the first world war returning from Germany to their farms with a number of dogs between a group of 3 or 4 soldiers including bitches in pup. As TJ says the German Tiger breeders are adamant their dogs are not collies, so perhaps that is a hint of a possibility why the merle (in some lines) does not react with the same intensity. At the same time the Tiger does not exhibit the irish trim, most other merle breeds seem to see the irish trim as part and parcel of the ideal dog so continue to include it perhaps the white in this contributes or magnifies the effect of the merle in those breeds…just another question.

At the moment DNA is the only scientific answer to breeding questions, people can breed for decades and get a feel for what their lines will do or throw which is fine but that won’t necessarily be reflected across the whole breed mainly because there seems to have been pockets evolve on their own across the country to the extent that they each have their own definition of a “real koolie”. Also the geneticists have confirmed that to see what could be the expected results of a set mating you would need to produce around 200 pups for the average expectations to be realized. Meaning that one or two litters from a mating may give an unbalanced result as the luck of the draw is the main driving factor. i.e. if over 200 puppies from a mating could expect to result in 50 reds nothing would stop the first one from turning up at number 20 and so never be viewed in a litter of 6 or even a second litter of 8 but it doesn’t mean it isn’t possible from that mating. The same would be true of a faulty gene that might cause a health problem.

My own feeling is that the lighter the merle the more likely the problem, but it also helps to know what is behind your dog which is one reason we record on our registration forms percentage of merle and percentage of white, we can’t fit it all on the registration certificates but I am happy to discuss that with potential breeders. We certainly give more information than any mainstream breed on the ancestors behind each dog to help make informed breeding decisions.

Koolie Mum If you research the origins of most “non ancient” breeds you will find particularly in the 1800s that breeding was intensive and culling was used extensively. Many breeders, not just farmers would routinely choose the best pups obvious in the first few weeks or days and dispose of the rest. Looking at this from a purely analytical view without the “ooh poor babies factor” it served a couple of purposes, it ensured only the best were able to carry on the line, no evidence of not so good results was left and the bitch was able to raise the best having all the resources available. Breeding was planned sometimes generations ahead with outcrossing to other lines and breeds as common as line and in breeding. Once koolie breeders realized the whites were more often than not inferior they were disregarded automatically. They would have knowledge of what the breeding was that came together with that result and adjusted there decisions. If the koolie merle does act slightly differently that may have been enough to improve the outcome.
It is possible for a MM dog with mostly white to be able to see and hear perfectly, before we knew any better we were given one. He was white with a couple of red spots and two perfectly formed blue eyes. I have heard of others just the same.

One thing that the DNA testing done so far has made clear, we already have very good genetic diversity compared to the common “pure breeds”, our geneticist told us it was an excellent thing to have and gave us plenty of scope to breed within the pool we have. Obviously with an open register we are still able to bring new koolies into the mix without needing to incorporate another breed. I think most of the crossing that has gone on or will go on is to introduce the koolie to the other breed. Some has been because no koolie male was available to breed over a good working bitch and the owner was looking to the next generation. They may have then been able to breed back to a koolie which will make the DNA interesting when it can specify what percentage of koolie there is and just what other breeds are present.

Leecos the fact is there are a lot more breeders than those who advertise on the internet or take out a weekly ad in the paper. Many of the long term breeders only breed when they require a new generation or they have a list of people waiting for a puppy. But these people are quite happy to discuss their breeding ideas and theories and that can only be done one on one. TJ and I have on several occasion taken to the road and visited these breeders and sat for hours listening to their years of experience and asked lots of question, the results of which have often been transcribed into our newsletter. These people would choke if you offered them a coffee meeting or brunch.

Others may be DNA testing but unless the dog is micro-chipped and verified at collection any results cannot be verified. Breeders that test, micro-chip and use the Koolie Pedigree Assurance program have an open creditable breeding program.



One thing that concerns me is when people announce that they are going to breed for the good of the breed, I have seen this quoted several times in different places on the internet, to those people my message is the koolie breed is doing just fine and doesn’t need preserving or saving or whatever they think, it has been nurtured for many many decades now and has come up trumps without being saved, preserved, shown or bred to a standard.

It is funny you say that there are more breeders out ther then those that advertise on the net or take out ads in the paper, cause I found it very hard to find mine, very little information was available to me on the web about them, all of our communications happend after somebody told somebody that told them about me looking for dogs to import. And we emailed and done live conferences and sent information back and forth about each other. I find that i agree the breeders most advertised on the web are not necesarily the ones you wnat to be dealing with, they can advantage of that position. I have not ever seen your newsletter so i am unable to comment on that, but I do know that our breeders meet regularly and would not choke if i were to fly down there tomorrow for coffee.
As to claims to breed for the good of the breed, I think there is alot more to that saying then just the litteral sense. When one claims to want to preserve the breed, it is mainly a reference to their working drive and numerous talents as a herding breed as well as their health and as you pointed out earlier their diversity geneticaly. There are multiple levels to breeding for the good of a breed, i see it as maintaining their qualities and introducing them to a competition world dominated by other breeds (when we all know the coolies can do better then them lol) herding, agility, obedience, flyball, therapy dogs, search and rescue, all these different avenues that they will accel at, it is also the responsibility of the breeder to have that in mind, these are working dogs and should not just be sold to anyone, pets are great for those pups that do ot meet drive criteria, but then again when breeding it should be best worker to best worker so there should be a minimal number of "pet" homed dogs. Breeding for the better of a breed or saveguarding it does not just mean health, it can also be a reference to destination of the puppies, integration of solids, putting dog sport titles on your breeding stock, not breeding pound dogs, feeding healthy nutritionous foods, having vet check every 6 months, socializing puppies to avoid social issues, there is alot to breeding for the better of the breed. And there are alot of coolies in shelters and rescues out there to show me that not everyone in Australia is breeding for the better of the breed.
As to the genetic talk, I value their ability to save trouble with defects and look forward to hearing news from our registry about the tests going on there. Discovering the origins of such a wonderful breed is just all very exciting.

[quote name='Silhouette' date='Oct 20 2007, 10:25 PM' post='4749']If you research the origins of most "non ancient" breeds you will find particularly in the 1800s that breeding was intensive and culling was used extensively. Many breeders, not just farmers would routinely choose the best pups obvious in the first few weeks or days and dispose of the rest. Looking at this from a purely analytical view without the "ooh poor babies factor" it served a couple of purposes, it ensured only the best were able to carry on the line, no evidence of not so good results was left and the bitch was able to raise the best having all the resources available. Breeding was planned sometimes generations ahead with outcrossing to other lines and breeds as common as line and in breeding.

One thing that concerns me is when people announce that they are going to breed for the good of the breed, I have seen this quoted several times in different places on the internet, to those people my message is the koolie breed is doing just fine and doesn't need preserving or saving or whatever they think, it has been nurtured for many many decades now and has come up trumps without being saved, preserved, shown or bred to a standard.
/quote]

Yes, I agree that we benefit today from the history of selection for herding. Fortunately now we have other things dogs can do apart from herding and the option of desexing, instead of culling by euthanasia.

And I agree that there is a certain arrogance in suggesting that this breed with a strong community attached to it is in need of 'saving' or is not being bred responsibly en masse. I hope I didn't imply that in what I said earlier. I'm sure you know how challenging (and interesting) it is to intergrate what we bring from the 'outside' world with the specialist knowledge within a breed community.

As for the DNA testing, what is the ideal situation there...does one submit from their 'foundation' dogs only or do they continue to submit from offspring too?

As for finding breeders, I too found that extremely hard, but I started over 3yrs ago & spent a long time looking & researching breeders before making a choice, the only bitch I gambled with was my Shay which so far has turned out o.k, but even so I found one thing that the breeders I found most experienced & responsible to talk to were the hardest to find as they don't breed frequently & when they do other studs etc. pounce on pups from the get go.

Now I looked at breeders from both side of the fence as I call it, & 1 thing I found very obvious many of those that advertise asked no questions about what I wanted with the pup/dog, it was very much yes we have one & this is the price, then one puppy when I didn't respond became 2 & then 3 & then we'll we now have the full litter if you want to chose the colour. When asked for solid they would say no we don't breed solids as they just don't sell. I would then look at their litters to find both parents merle, & questionable whities in the litter.
After almost 3yrs of this I came across a lovely deafie that was ideal & when owning her I found a lot of very nice people came out of the woodwork & introduced themselves & this is when people with solids came forward & I found people who put dogs first & I felt like I had to earn the right to own one of their dogs, not because of the dog's breeding etc. but so they knew the dog had a good home & I had the right intentions as a breeder.


I had a very interested converstation with someone that breeds BC's yesterday that has acquaintances in Aust with Aussie Shep's & they apparently are finding it hard to source the solid tri's etc. as there is too many merles (I don't know how true this is) & that a breeder she knew bred a merle to merle & not only ended up with a high % deaf with eye problems but also facial deformities & mentally 'damaged' (all affected puppies walking in circles & oblivious to the world) has anyone else heard of this in the Aussies? where more serious things than ears/eyes are affected as well?

Leecos, I agree with you but sadly it isn't an ideal world especially in Australia when we are dealing with general farmers & when a lot of farmers out there buy Koolie pups to work & that have no interest in anything other than a good working Koolie, even through no fault of it's own a good Koolie that doesn't meet expectations through incorrect training etc. will end up culled in many places here, you just have to open eyes as to what goes on with the working Kelpies & BC's with the cull rate on those. What this means as when they are culled potentially valuable data & lines go with it & many of the good dogs never get a chance outside of herding/work. So many people involved in the Koolie have zero interest in it doing anything other than it's job & I know many look at the sporting events.

On the flip side of this, whilst I think they need to branch out as well I think it is invaluable for Koolies to earn their worth in both herding as a priority & other as like any herding breed if it is taken away from it's roots for other things & looses it's herding abilities. The BC kennel I visited yesterday I was both wetting my pant in laughter as well as angry as we were rounding up their sheep & 6 guys 2 ATV's & 3hrs of frustration while all the BC's hid in their runs as they are terrified of sheep & won't work....these dogs hold a HIGH reptuation in th BC world especially in the sporting fields.

Thankfully there are a number of breeders out there that are multitasking with herding & sporting titles etc. but we do need more. I plan to but again it comes to time & travel to get this done.

I've done a bit of investigating this today & can't find what the BC breeder was on about but all merle genetics sites I've been to esp. Aussie Shep ones state that is is a misconception that other physical & mental behaviours aren't linked to double merle defects .

It is interesting though seeing the list of breeds associated with merle problems, it is quite long.

That is my point, just because you look around the net doesn't mean you can hope to find all (and the longest established) breeders. The vast majority are average farming families that are flat out trying to survive in some cases battling drought for nearly 10 years, they breed their dogs very selectively, not pump out litter after litter. They are the ones that have nutured this breed and when they do breed it usually to select a pup for their next generation then the rest are available often to people that have been waiting many months for the opportunity. As Mushoz found, then they are not handed over lightly, questions have to be answered the right way and they have to feel the person is going to give the dog the best home possible. Quite often a breeder will have an established clientel in the area so that they don't need or want to advertise. It is a culture of the koolie and they are very wary of mainstream dog breed habits and townies stuff like breakfast meetings and conferencing, they prefer to see you face to face and see whether the dog picks you or not.



See you have not connected with the koolie culture at all, we want to share the breed with like minded people for sure, those that connect well with koolies are always welcome but what sounds like could evolve into a full blown marketing campaign very easily, to take the competition world by storm is not what we are about. Sure they can do all that and are already doing it here but people quietly going about making contact with breeders to select a suitable koolie and then getting involved in these sports and activities and letting the dog promote the breed so people are able to see the results themselves, then seek out their own dog and experience it themselves so the culture grows through people that really "know koolies", not collecting up some dogs and pumping out so many litters they have a weekly ad in the newspaper then handing them over to anyone that answers the ad or supplying them to pet shops. This is how so many are ending up in pounds because those people don't ask the questions or give a hoot as long as they get their 3 or 4 hundred dollars.

Koolie Mum I wasn't aiming that comment at you I tried to seperate it from the rest of the post, it is something that has brewed in my mind for a long time and after speaking to so many people who enquire about joining and registering so many stories are similar, my koolie is so wonderful it must be unique, it has so much to offer the breed, I must breed because otherwise the uniqueness will be lost. All are welcomed but also advised to take their time, meet some other koolie people and their dogs please make it to a meeting and discuss it with other people there. Usually it doesn't take very long and they realise their koolie is so much like everyone elses and that it is the breed that is unique. Some still do breed but it usually is at a more consider and careful pace.

Mushoz with the DNA if you want to take part in the Pedigree Assurance Program, DNA any dog that is micro-chipped, at least. The foundation dog is fine for disease testing because once you know he is clear of a disease he can't pass it on but I think it will be equally valuable in future for parent verification so doing each dog you never know when a dispute may very easily be settled.

As a farmer I am trying hard not to be offended here, but as the registrar who has spent countless hours talking to breeders and farmers and learning about this koolie culture I will say that it is the farming comunity that has got this breed through 150 years to this point and I think we all agree it is in pretty good shape. I would also say because of the type of personality it has the farmers that use them are all similar and they value their dogs as family members just as any other non farming owners do and TJ will testify to this as we have travelled around they only have the highest regard for their dogs and often are only ever a few feet from their side indoors and out, the culture that you refer to has been evident in the kelpie people we meet but that is their culture plenty of them wouldn't even look at a koolie but those that change from kelpies to koolies will never go back. I can honestly say I have only come across a few people that fit that discription in 7 years, none have stayed in the club or the breed as far as I know. Many of the farmers that have bred for decades and their fathers before them are very concerned that if this breed goes beyond the farm gate it will be ruined - it is possible yet, look at the BC and show kelpies, but the club has been a great way to introduce those people to the new wave of interest and to get both sides talking and they are learning from each other and starting to understand a lot more. These breeders are also concerned with the new wave of "herding" as it isn't real work to them, a truely good working dog can work along side them for a full day mustering thousands of sheep or hundreds of cattle with barely a comand and know that the job would never have been done without them. Whereas herding and titles can be done teaching the dog to respond to commands and instructions only and achieved without the dog needing to think for itself on it's feet in tight situations.

One of the messages we received from the BC community when the club was started was "don't make the same mistakes we did".

I didn't mean that in the context I think you took it as Silhouette, I was just trying to relate to 2 things at once...to the farming v's suburbian (even thats not the right word) mentality when it comes to culling inferior dogs & the sporting fields that many of these farm dogs can really prove a point against other breeds, yet never get the opportunity as they are farm dogs first & foremost & I'm yet to meet many farmers that do the sporting events on the side with their dogs.

I am from a farming background & am a farmer too & I know full well what happens to dogs that don't make the cut be it in ability or in colour in this topic, not all farmers do this but a vast majority do & many Koolie people that are farmers that I've spoken to do just this, whereas in the more urban minded people these dogs usually get rehomed, dumped or end up in the pound & this poses a problem by passing on the responsibility to others & as providing entire dogs for suburban people to breed for profit under the sporting dog 'purposes'. I agree that beyond the farmgate the breed can be destroyed by people breeding for that specific purpose (agility etc.) & not ensuring their dogs are ample capable of forfilling their general purpose ....which is where the BC & Kelpie have gone wrong.

On the flip side of this selling pups to farmers not familiar with the Koolie can create problems as the Koolie isn't the same as a Kelpie or BC & many farmers new to the breed wanting their next farm dog find trouble & many of these pups do end up in a sad fate, & so thankfully many breeders are equally careful to place pups with those that understand the breed OR have a returns policy on pups that don't turn out. Another potential problem here also is that a farmer gets a good Koolie & decides to breed more Koolies with no intention other than to breed his own stock & has no understanding of Merle & when they start getting these MM pups all sorts of things can occur from that...many of them aren't a good outcome.

I think what has carried the Koolie through unlike the BC & Kelpie is that their numbers are low & the people involved in bringing them through have expecatations of the dogs, dogs that don't make the grade aren't bred on with, but dogs that do are treasured & treated better than a farm tool & this is where the longterm breeders must be creditted by seeing their dogs as more than disposable tools & once they get a great dog it raises their benchmark & improves the breed yet again.

I agree that the Koolie is capable of multi-tasking & succeeding in multiple requirements, but yes they shouldn't be marketed & campaigned so everyone out there wants one & the breed gets more affected by breeders for profit, & this (getting back to the topic) is where the merle to merle often creeps in as a problem as merle pups & especially those with striking white markings usually sell better than plain solids, & as being one that has come across a number of people that breed merle to merle simply because solid pups just don't sell, I personally have been told on more than 5 occassions that they breed merle to merle as in the end what deaf/blind pups are culled would equal what solids would get culled as they don't sell so what is the difference? this is where IMO the solids should be brought into the spotlight a little more as to try to build a better acceptance, but not targetted so that there is an over supply.

I love quotes, they allow you to focus on just one bit at a time.

Since 2000 the club has endeavored to encourage safer breeding practices by introducing information and results from solid to merle matings, we have seen a dramatic reduction of white blind/deaf pups and the number of enquiries after solid sires grows.
This demonstrates that slow and steady wins the race as Silhouette so eloquently put it.



Couldn't have said it better myself.



As I have said in an earlier post on here, before 2000 the person was rare who had heard of the Koolie breed outside of Australia and that the vast majority of information on the net was and is still supplied by the Koolie Club, this is the very reason we avidly encourage and caution the general public to seek further information from the Koolie Club, so they can access the breeders who do have the knowledge, do stand by their breed, and have a vast understanding of the Koolie.



It is not only in Australia farmers practice culling as a way to reduce numbers, wean out the week, encourage a flavour (such as the merle colour)
It is a practice followed world wide and not just with animals, I too can add my name to having a farming background and have done my time on the stations.
My father was one of those very man who shot anything that didn't work its way.
But with Koolies it is different, those who have had Koolies through generations of their own families, understand that to get the best from a Koolie it needs to be your mate, remembering the original blokes, the drovers, who selected dogs that were not just exceptional workers, with great stamina or hardiness but also who would be a companion on the long nights, who would listen with intent to every word they spoke, who shared their meals, their swags, this understanding has been handed down from father to son, from family to family.
The only time I have seen Koolies mistreated on the many properties Silhouette and I have visited have been owned by newbie’s to the breed, who have failed to understand how to get the best from their Koolies so they have turned to intimidation and harsh treatment and in many cases resulting in the Koolies death.
Through Koolie rescue I have seen the ignorance of those men and the effects upon those Koolies who are fortunate to have missed the bullet.



Now see I think your wrong, firstly by living in Australia we have the added advantage of being able to compare for ourselves first hand, to actually get off our behinds and visit many breeders.
You say that your from over sea, so this indicates that you weren't able to see first hand your breeders operation, you only had photos, papers, etc which all could have been bogus, you go on your gut feeling that your breeders have done the right by you,(again not saying they didn't)
You! might! run the risk of being ripped off in Australia or anywhere, mostly because you don't know Koolies, (No disrespect, just making my point)
When we go looking for a Koolie we are looking for a dog to fill our needs, not particularly fussed about the colour, but it needs to fit our requirements, will it endure 14 hour days when we are shearing, or handle the muster, be reliable on the long mile(Droving)will its feet be hardy enough to with stand the five jack, there is a list a mile long that a dog must fill before its selected, if you can't see the parents, it you don't know what's behind it, if you can't even see it perform how can you know with any certainty that what they say you are getting is what you got.
And here in Australia we can kick bums if we don't like what we get.
Being over seas your risks are far, far greater,than mine.

Which is why it is safer for anyone looking to know more to go through a club that has a sound reputation and a membership full of knowledgable people like you have found here and aren't we all getting on like a house on fire.

Silouhette quote: "It is a culture of the koolie and they are very wary of mainstream dog breed habits and townies stuff like breakfast eetings and conferencing, they prefer to see you face to face and see whether the dog picks you or not."

Again very sorry I am unable to travel to your beautiful country at this time but that does not have anything to do with my views and aspirations with this breed. It does not make me any less "worthy" of [i]your breed. I respect the coolie for what it is and what it does, and fully intend on maintaining that purpose, as I have said before i own a sheep farm and use them as coworkers here, and best worker will be be bred to best worker to produce excellent workers. And thank you to my breeders for seing that and not having a closed mind because I am unable to travel to let the puppy pick me. Cause in a perfect world that is what i would have wanted but with great thought and screening the right dogs were sent to me, it was a collective effort on the part of reponsible breeders screening their potential clients and honesty as to what i was looking for that made the choice of dogs possible.

Silouhette quote: "See you have not connect with the koolie culture at all, we want to share the breed with like minded people for sure, those that connect well with koolies are always welcome but what sounds like could evolve into a full blown marketing campaign very easily, to take the competition world by storm is not what we are about"

I have to ask....when you breed all of your dogs are top herding dogs? all of the pups in every litter is a really good working dog? Do all KCA members breed and sell only for farms and ranchs? Cause every breeder of every working breed breeding their TOP DOGS will still have the few that are good dogs but just dont quite cut it for the farm job. Now those dogs are to go where? Which is the better choice: pet home? or sport home? no one here claimed to want to take anything over by storm, the mention of exposing the breed yet unknown over seas to these sports in no case involves a "take over by storm". Thank you for the vote of confidence, i appriciate that you would think me capable of doing that :)

Silouhette quote:"These breeders are also concerned with the new wave of "herding' as it isnt real work to them, a truly good working dog can work along side them for a full day mustering thousands of sheep or hundreds of cattle with barely a command and know that the job would never have been done without them.. Whereas herding and titles can be done teaching the dog to respond to commands and instructions only and achieved without the dog needing to think for itself on its feet in tight situations."

We cannot throw everybody into this big melting pot of "because a few people dont do it right it must mean no one does". My dogs are used around the ranch everyday and will continue to be, they will when more experienced go out to the cut blocks for days or weeks at a time in the summer months and work thousands of sheep in the high pastures in the mountains, they are being used as you would say "inside the farm gate". But the fact that i decide to take those skills into a arena and compete with them doesnt make them any less capable to make their own decisions or unable to think for themselves in tight situations. Actually in a competition that would help you along to have a dog that can decide for themselves, hence my choice of breed.

Mushoz quote:"I agree that beyond the farmgate the breed can be destroyed by people breeding for that specific purpose (agility etc...) & not ensuring their dogs are ample capable of forfilling their general purpose...which is where the BC & Kelpie have gone wrong."

Yes Yes you hit the nail on the head, it can be devastating to a breed if only bred for dog sports but in the case of someone (me) ensuring that the dogs are capable of fullfiling their general purpose and only directing pups not up to par for farm work into sports can succesfully place all of the pups in the best homes possible without any culling, placing in pet homes or pound overpopulation of working dogs that dont cut it for farmers or are to much for pets.

Mushoz quote:"On the flip side of this selling pups to farmers not familiar with the koolie can create problems as the koolie isnt the same as a kelpie or BC and many farmers new to the breed wanting their next farm dog find trouble and many of these pups do end up in a sad fate and so thankfully many breeders are equally careful to place pups with those that understand the breed OR have a return policy on pups that dont turn out. Another potential problem here also is that a farmer gets a good koolie and decides to breed more koolie with no intention other then breed his own stock and has no understanding of merle and when they start getting these MM ppups all sorts of things can occur from that...many of them arent a good outcome>"

It is up to the breeder to have a good understanding of their clients and what they need and are wanting and for see any conflicts there. And a puppy contract is a VITAL piece of documantation in my mind. No offspring of mine is to be bred without my co-ownership, and anyone not willing to sign my contract does not get a puppy. So it is possible for a responsible breeder to cover all the basis if they have the right motivations.

Now call me crazy but i do sense alot of hostility towards me from certain of you and find it very dissapointing. I think there is alot of assumtions being made about me, my dogs, and my intentions as a breeder and kinda feel sad about it, i thought this was "one of the friendliest places on the net". And I would have to thank Tjukurpa for inviting me here not long ago but I wish to say that if my participation here is unwelcome, I have no problem with that at all.

We have seemed to have strayed off topic haven't we.

I will add though, that when I said 'ideal world' I meant that as in the fact that in the end any one person can do whatever they like with their dog(s), be it which breeder breeds merle to merle with a degree of safety or not...this 'safety' really is the debate here, which breeder sells to who & for what purpose, what breeder breeds for what to begin with & what individual does with their dogs under the vast situations out there.


I'm only talking in my posts from my personal experience as one that spent so long looking into things in the breed & knew very little about them & was told 10 different things by 8 different people, & I will never stop learning in this breed & the challenge is there to do my best with my intentions.

It's OK Mushoz, sometimes it is easy to play devils advocate and because we have spoken to so many people and had these discussions with them I tend to speak for what I think the general koolie farm population would think. I know you are a farmer and you would understand my hesitation when being lumped in with a particular group.

The fact what farmers do, whether cullers or de-sexers or what non farming breeders do compare them all to mother nature and see just how cruel she can be, many of you would have seen the video shown recently of lions and aligators in Africa all trying to kill a buffalo calf. (Who got away because the herd came back to save it). Time and time again the things that happen naturally on farm and in the wild are horrifying even to farmers. Yet the wacko animal liberationists would have all domestic animals released into the wild..boy you would see some horrible events then..

As TJ said solids are becoming more acceptable, there has been a lot of work done explaining the genetic effects and slowly the message is getting through, as I write this I should be replying to a request that has come in for just that, a solid black stud available to breed over a merle bitch that is a little on the light side, the owner came to a meeting and chatted with the members including a 70 years experience breeder and has come to the conclusion that a solid is the right answer. It is a slow process but the right one for the breed and the people because every breed is still evolving including the theories of the breeders and they need to make the decisions themselves fully aware of the possible outcomes.


We NEVER said you weren't worthy. We are trying to impart some of the information that you would have found if you could travel here, some of the culture of the breed.
That is my aim and hope, the foundation members started the club to get like minded people intouch with each other and to maintain the working ability and heritage for generations to come. The breed evolved on farm, working day in day out beside their people, the vast majority up to this point were bred on farm. Some are now bred off farm but we also try to impart the values that have gone before to them as well, not just you.


A little devils advocate again here....sorry...but if someone is suitable enough to own one of your puppies surely retaining a part ownership stifles their rights as owner themselves, I assume you still expect a full purchase price. Don't take it the wrong way, I'm just wondering comparing, trusting them to take the dog, but not really....

You're CRAZY!!!! Now don't go reading things into the posts again, you should have realised we like rolling a subject around, looking at it from all angles and testing all theories. If you can handle this you have passed one of the first tests LOL! We have done nothing like the full character assasinations that go on and are going on now elsewhere on the net, you have been a member here for a while and can see that nowhere do we go to the extremes of others, but we do love to debate and this is more what a forum is for than the crap that goes on elsewhere. You are welcome, as everyone else is to post, but no one is obliged to be involved and some of those that are active elsewhere have already lost that welcome because of very bad behaviour.

I can see both sides of this as not 1 of our Husky pups that hasn't a binding desexing contract can take one of our pups for breeding purposes without a co-ownership, why....because many may be able to care for our dogs exceptionally well BUT when it comes to experience in the breed when it comes to making wise decisions this is something that can so easily have 2 results 1)the buyer sometimes goes to great lengths to tell you what you want to hear & after the pup changes ownership you discover the awful truth & everything that has been built to convince you that they are ideal is lies & they are only out for a cheap pedigreed dog to breed with (as we don't sell for the average price we sell to cover costs) & the pups end up in pet shops or to other puppy mills.
the other thing that can happen is regardless whether your involved with the breeding or not, your prefix is still on the pedigree so if it doesn't go well it reflects poorly on you.

On the flip side in relation to Koolies, this does come down to careful screening of the potential buyer as well compared to other breeds the Koolie isn't worth it for breeders for profit unless they are mass producing.

From my experience I have found most people interested in my pups introduce themselves with long emails, their ideals as well as a request to visit you to meet the parents...this is a refreshing change therefore the pups I know aren't suitable for breeding better Koolies are on a desex contract & those sold to breeders I know full well the background of the kennel & their intentions.

This is how you feel sometimes as a newbie, not sure which way the mood of the post will move.

But we all share the joy of a good dog and one day we will know just how much koolie they each carry.

Each post is to make us ponder, and look deeper.

You only feel your a target, but your not.

You are part of a community

Where all ideas are shared, discussed and yes even debated.

No one is at war here

And I for one am

So maybe with a few pictures you can feel a bit more relaxed

This is! the friendliest forum on the net and this post proves it.

Maybe we can all get together & have at my place & ponder discussions until we get & forget what we were discussing

Yeah TJ, everybody are welcome to post there dog photo's...whether they are Koolie or any other breed...

Well i would love to post pics but i am not handy with computer and no matter what i do i still cannot figure out how to post pics on forums so i will be updating my web site with pics, that is the only thing i can do with pics lol.