Hi People I have an interesting couple of issues that I would like your opinion on
1. Define a purebred Koolie
2. Define when a Koolie is aggressive or dominant

Hi Again,

I will give it a go.

1: Define a purebred Koolie.
I must start here by saying that the dog should have been bred originally from two Koolies that were of sound build and mind and that had the inherent Koolie traits. The rest of the line bred from these dogs should have been selectively bred to ensure that these traits remained. The discussion on color doesn't matter, a lot of people shun an overly white dog because of genetic worries. I don't particularrly worry about a single dog that may carry a lot of white as this dog may have come from a litter that was pridominatly dark. I believe that genes are dominant or subjective and that a certain gene which may be displayed in a certain dog unless dominant doesn't matter. If the weak gene is dominant the problem can normally be fixed by breeding this dog with a complimentary dog that will erase this gene.I believe above all that a Koolie should display certain traits inherent in the reputation of the breed.

2: Define when a Koolie is aggressive or dominant.

All the Koolies that I own have the same dominance features in that they are natural headers (Will stop a beast head on)have herding instincts ( gather a mob together and keep them there) Heeling ( will move a beast from the rear)
Hardiness ( tough enough to do the job) Heeding (willingness to accept commands). These dogs will move anything from an obstinate Bull to 6 week old chickens and everything between adapting to each species as needed and using just enough force as needed.

Aggression is the wish to harm without a need to. I often test for just this by placing a 3 or 4 month old pup in a yard with say 3 sheep, the pup should herd these sheep into a corner and show cover when they are there that is move from side to side to keep them there. They should not latch on and be dragged around by a sheep this would be aggression.


hope I did allright Jack Wilja Koolies

Define purity.
According to the Canine control, a pure breed is defined by a certificate of authenticity which has been generated by the central registrar, displaying three years of bloodline linage.
That registrar being recognized by the canine control of that country.

This is the reason I choose to call our bloodlines generation bred Koolies instead of pure, the word “pure” opens up a can of worms and I just don't go there.
Each group, from, horses, cows, ducks, sheep, bird etc have their own accepted world or country recognized interpretation of what is pure.
Maybe readers of this post could do some research and post those statistics here so our visitors can better relate and comprehend what to each group, classifies accepted purity.


Regarding aggression
Thanks Jack your input is on the ball.
I especially agree with your statement.


It is so correct.

Too many times as a trainer I will have clients come to me with what they refer to as aggressive dogs only to learn they have, inadvertently, unconsciously or even accidentally caused the response themselves.

We generally accept that a dog does not possess information like a human, but rather gathers and accesses their information on an emotional level, able to sense, fear, anger, frustration, calmness, excitement, tension etc and body language which is also motivated by emotional response.

In fact I have never in my thirty years of working and training in Obedience ever met a truly aggressive dog that was aggressive by nature it was always a taught response.

The most common aggression is found when pups under the age of 12 months have been attacked by older dogs, this stays with them and will continue to impact upon their character, motivating them to become fear biters unless special effort on the handlers part occurs soon after the incident.

Jealousy follows as a close second, dogs can and do display jealousy if the pack leader, the handler or owner has not taken on the lead role, if a dog feels it's position in the family pack is under threat or that it decides it deserves to move up in the hierarchy then the fault lies with the handler who has failed to make the dog secure in its position in the pecking order, you are the boss, your dogs are the followers, only the boss makes decisions every one else tows the line.

Many people get into strife because they believe mistakenly that to be boss you must intimidate, incorporating methods of training that instill fear and distrust and a general breakdown in the hierarchy and this is the third most common response of aggression I have seen, give any breed enough pain and it will protect itself, or if the dog has learned to interpret your actions towards him or those he feels the need to protect as threatening then he will show aggression.

There are many form of aggression and dominance and many good books are available on the subject.
I truly believe that even after all our time spent in the company of the domesticated dog, humans on a whole still rarely if ever understand this animal we invite in to our home, families even our beds.

I personaly think the dog is far more intelligent!...............
You can finish that sentence anyway you wish, I like it the way it is.

HiTjukurpa,

Sounds good but I don't tink that a certificate of authenticity meant much before DNA testing was introduced.
I believe that over the years a lot of dogs were sold by advertising pedigrees of parentage that were not the true dam & sire of the pup.
Especially when you consider mail order and imported dogs where the buyer had only at best seen photo's of the Dam & Sire with description of these dogs and was never to know what this pup was really bred from.
I am glad that DNA testing has occured and believe what I have outlined here is the reason for it.
So in the future that statement may be ok when a person can check on authenticity in a real way.

Jack Wilja Koolies

Again you are right on the mark.
A certificate proves nothing and can be modified to state what ever the breeder wishes.
But according to what is socially accepted as being "pure" has traditional been through the producing of a "pedigree"
I am glad the Koolie Club of Australia offers DNA testing to our members and that our members in turn, take full advantage of the opportunity.
DNA can't lie and when used in conjunction with a tattoo or micro-chip can not be tampered with.

Tjukurpa have always DNA tested all our original stud stock and all pups, since DNA testing was made available to us by Genetic Technologies Services Australia.

I can hardly thank both TJ and Jack enough regarding the definition and synopsis of aggression in dogs. As the one on the other end of the lead of a dog labelled "aggressive" , I was always at pains not to place him in a situation where he felt he needed to protect himself. As I may have once said, this dog ( Tolkien, an ACD) was attacked by a large dog ( breed irrelevant) at 6 months, he then was "programmed" that ALL dogs larger then he and of dark colouring would harm him in the same manner...so he attacked (or attempted to) this was aside from the normal male dominance aggression you may see as gender was not an issue..he would attempt to attack a black female Lab but would ignore a male Terrier or Border Colle.
People need to realise that for every action there is a reason, dogs do not speak our language, but we need to take time and effort to understand their naunces and actions.

Hi Tjukurpa,

I think that you are sort of on the right track but seem to not wish to allow any agression to play a part in the dogs development.
I let my dogs run together at times and then see them blocking and trying to herd each other. I think that a pup that does this to an older dog is gaining much needed experience. As far as fear biters go I don't think that this applies to most dogs as a dog may be fearfull of another dog or bull etc but should still be ok with everything else. A fearbiter is a dog that has not got any confidence in it's own ability and bites out of shear terror to defend itself.
I think that such dogs have a fundamental problem and should be put down.
I think that working dogs become more agressive (dominant) when working stock,
I have often seen one of my dogs that was a little softer than I would have liked being dominated by an animal only to see the dog retreat and go back in harder.
I think that this shows determination on the dogs part.
I think that farmers like dogs that are extremely hard in themselves but tempered on stock, By that I mean that the dog in itself should be hard enough to accomplish any task given but controlled in how it uses this.

I personally like extremely hard dogs as we often lend a hand at local musters and on local farms when a dog is offline. My dogs tend to adapt to the stock they are working and I would hate to see a dog dominated by an animal so badly that it will not work again purely because it in itself isn't hard enough.

I think that a lot of problems arise in working dogs through lack of training.
I teach my dogs a command called "STEADY", this tells the dog that I think it is going in to hard and it slows down. I think that this teaches the dog to temper it's behaviour on different stock.
I once tried one of my Koolies on chickens that had not seen them before only to find that this dog went in so hard that it would have done a lot of damage to these chickens until I gave the command "STEADY" and everything settled down and the job was completed without further fuss.


Jack WIlja Koolies

Jack what is your definition of a "fear biter"? I am refering to a dog who lunges at others (whilst on a lead) and would attempt to do so off lead. (which he did not after I gained the help and expertise of a few very adept and knowledgable handlers)

Fear biting, by my understanding, is the dog who will snap or "warning nobble" a hand when it encroaches "space" of the dog. My dog, whilst he had issues, never attempted to do the same to a person or child. I have photos of my daughter as a two year old upon his back as he chewed a bone. His issue was borne of a dog attack and his consequent actions were directly related to that attack. He was dominant and would hold eye contact with another dog of like dominiance level, but would ignore a male Border, golden retritrever, smal and toy dogs, GSDs.

Whilst primary producers who rely heavily on their dogs cannot allow a problem dog to continue to work stock. Those of us who have a foot in both realms but who lean more towards companion dogs can probably have a little bit more luxery to try to fing the core of the issue and reverse it ..I am very glad someone took that time with me years ago.

Dear Lawson Legend,

To answer your question about fear biters.

I believe that a fear biter is a dog that has absolutely no confidence and will always retreat as far as it can from anything IT is afraid of, the dog then when further confronted will come out snapping in a vain atempt to protect itself.
This kind of dog is dangerous and should not be kept with kids or adults that are not aware of the problem.

I don't think from what you describe that you had a fear bitter at all just a dog that was a little over protective.

I have said a lot on this forum about agresion and some reasons that this occurs. I don't wish to have a go at anyone but I think that there are a lot of people out there that just don't understand the nature of a working dog and the traits that should be bred into them.

Example.

I have recently picked up a new male pup (Rex) this pup to some people would seem very agressive. He blocks my older dogs with force and stops them dead in there tracks. He will jump up on top of these other dogs and will bite them in the neck or bite there rear legs when he is trying to turn them.
This is not aggression it is part of the working dog makeup.
This pup in 8 or so months will be working cattle and will then use all these traits to control these animals.
I think that a lot more information needs to be made available to those that don't work there dogs on stock and keep these dogs as pets. They must surely find these dogs doing the same as mine do but asume wrongly that this is agression.


If you have a look at my web site (training a working dog/ Selection of a pup)
you will see a photo of a Sire of some pup's interacting with these pup's, You will see one pup at the Sires head that has it's head down and is ready to block.
This is described as a natural Header and this will be a very good working dog.

A working dog displays the same traits that you describe as your dog having in that these dogs will nip at a steers head, front or rear feet and then quickly retreat so that they don't get kicked.
This is all natural instinct that I wish all working dogs displayed.

On the other hand you have Koolies that should not be classified as working dogs.
I once bought a Koolie from a breeder that should have been a good working dog by all she said but this same dog had no instinct at all and was scared of my chickens. I have a photo of this chocolate colored Koolie cowering in a corner being kept there by three australorp chickens.
Can you imagine this dog herding steers.

I believe that if your dog displays these tendencies you should do some training with this dog and teach it when it is work time and when it is not.



Hope this helps

Jack Wilja Koolies

I agree with Jack, to me a fear biter is at the end of his tether (mentally) and feels he has nowhere to go. His last option in his eyes is to get in first at whatever comes next. Lawson I think your dog just purely had issues and was over labelled if hung with fear biter.



I also believe that a lot of companion bought koolies that end up in rescue have perhaps been of strong working instinct, misunderstood and mishandled because of it and then through no fault of their own the dog ends up in the pound or rescue. This is one reason why the club is so important in that we can be a source of information and education and that may well be able to convince some people koolies are not for them. We can also help to try and steer the right people towards the right dog and visca versa and by welcoming all people interested in koolies hopefully save some dogs and owners from being in bad situations. It is also a very good reason to discuss these issues in an open way in places like this....thanks all!

To Lawson Legend

A further note

Definition of a fear biter.

A dog that cowers from the slightest thing and when it has retreated as far as it can will come out teeth bared.



I have read your post again and can say with 100 % certainty that your dog isn't a fear biter. A dog that lunges on the end of the lead is outgoing and is not a fear biter.
I agree with Silhouette that a lot of good working dogs probably end up as rescue dogs because they are seen by people as uncontrolable.

If you don't have any stock to work with you might try some agility training as I think that this comes as close to a working dogs routines as any training I have ever seen.

you may get some usefull information from my web site

http://people.aapt.net.au/~jackalbers

To Silhouette

Maybe we should set up a post that could be used to describe the traits of a good working dog that could double as a question and answer bord.


Your thoughts please

Jack Wilja Koolies

Good idea Jack. Have set up a pinned topic under Discuss Canine Genetics heading.