This is a topic suggested by one of our forum members, to discuss and help each other define what traits indicate that your koolie is exhibiting the potential to be a good working dog. These traits being exhibited by a dog in a non working environment may see that dog labeled as a troublesome, mischievous or aggressive dog incorrectly. Feel free to post any concerns you may have regarding your dogs behaviour, they may indicate something different to what you expect. Please feel free to ask questions about and discuss anything that is bought up here. Some of our forum members have extensive experience to draw on and are all here because they have a willingness to share and want to see all koolies in a happy healthy environment.

Hi All,

This was suggested by me after getting a few questions after some responses I posted.
If you have any questions or concerns about behavioural issues please post them here and the members of this forum with their extensive knowledge should be able to dispel some of the myths surrounding our Beloved Koolies


Jack Wilja Koolies

Hi All,

Let me start this discussion.

I have received some questions about agression in our dogs, this seems to have been explained away as over agressive.

I think that often agression displayed by puppies is due to good breeding.
working dog puppies can be broken down into categories.
1: Natural header
2: Natural Heeler
3: Pets

1: The natural Header is best described as a dog that will face oncomming
animals other dogs and sometimes people head on and try to (block) them
head on by force. If your dog displays this sort of behaviour be very happy
as you probably have what farmers would consider a very good working dog.

2: The natural Heeler is best described as a dog that will attack the rear
legs of an animal other dog or person but will never block them from the
front.This type of dog would be ok on a diary where the cows know the way
to the milking shed but need a hurry up from time to time.

3: Any dog that doesn't HEAD or HEEL should be considered a pet.
This dog through poor breeding has lost all signs of working
instinct and should not be bred from.

The Photo attached here shows the Sire of these Puppies interacting with the pup's. You will notice 1 pup at the sires head with it's head down ready to stop the sire (block) this is what is described as a natural header.
The pup on the far left of the sire and behind the sire is displaying characteristics of a natural heeler.
this may help to explain some behaviours you see in your dog.

We must keep in mind that these dogs are working dogs designed to herd Cattle, Sheep, Pigs etc

Jack Wilja koolies

I read with great interest your definitions and after I spent the over three hours over two days with the owners of my dogs sire ( and a "honorary" curly Koolie called Lucy,LOL)
I was interested to notice that Lawson, is want you termed a natural header whilst at home or out with our ACD ( an 12 y.o bitch) But had to been show his place with his sire as he had no idea about his place in the order of things when it came to other dogs ( his obedience class group are all 5-6 month old pups like him).

His sire put him in his place ( more than once) and apart from a few possesive issues with me ( either dog too close to me for the others liking or vis a vis with the sires owners )all had a great time out on both occassions.

He, however, was reluctant to attempt the same with his sire as when he did he was admonished by the dog. Size was not an issue as Jemma has almost 10 kgs over the sire. But it was interesting to note the change of tack when he is with other dogs.

A further test

A pup should be tested to see if it is worthwhile as a working dog so that you don't waste a lot of time training the pup only to find out that it isn't what you require.

I often let a young pup out with my chickens and observe what happens.
This pup should try to herd these chickens into an area but not attack them full on. You should see the pup standing off at times with it's head down blocking the chickens.

I often when the pup can run faster than a sheep place the pup in a yard with 3 or 4 sheep. The pup should then herd these sheep into a corner of the yard and keep them there showing cover.Showing cover for those that don't understand this term means that the pup should move from side to side and keep all 3 or 4 sheep where put. A dog that does this is a good dog.
A pup that goes out hard and bites 1 sheep and hangs onto this sheep without paying any attention to the other sheep is probably to agressive and lacks instinct. You may be better off looking for another dog.


Hope this helps


If you have a different opinion please feel free to post it here as this is what the forum is for.



Jack Wilja Koolies

I love all this input, it is great to hear what long time breeders think about this subject. Thanks for sharing all this great information.

Karolina Koolies

Hi Again,

Thanks Karolina Koolies,

I don't mind discussing any thoughts that people might have but would like to have some input from others that may have different thoughts.

I have been training dogs my whole life both here and in europe everything from police dogs, tracking dogs, rescue dogs. obedience dogs and working dogs.

I have a lot of ways to do things but believe that there is always a better way or a short cut.
I am a strong believer that each dog must be trained to match it's character.

I would again like to ask other people to have some input and let's start a proper discussion.





Jack Wilja Koolies

Hi All

Maybe someone could suggest something for a friend of ours I have just been speaking to. He kindly rehomed a male koolie who's owner decided couldn't work, he is now on a dairyfarm as a guy with sheep who tried him said he wouldn't cast but just pushed...with the dairy cows he wants to get in front and block!! Any suggestions on how to keep him behind. Unfortunately the guy who has him now is not a patient person and is in a rush constantly.... I am going to see him Thursday so will be interested to see what actually happens and would like to be able to make some suggestions...

Dear Silhouette

A dog will naturally go to the opposite side of the stock and try to bring them to you.
This person could try to stay ahead of the stock and then see the dog going behind.

Otherwise training is needed.

I would like to be able to describe this here but it needs some explaination otherwise ot can be taken the wrong way.

there are several things that this dog needs to understand and do.

Normally

a dog needs to stay or sit down when told, go back when instructed and understand what casting is all about.
These things can be taught to an adult dog in a matter of weeks.

If this dog knows the sit or stay command tell this gent to go ahead of his stock and then cast this dog behind the stock and tell it to sit or stay etc.
from there you should only need casting control and sit command or stay.

EG cast the dog behind the stock then when it is in place tell it to sit from there make minor casting changes with get over or go by to position the dog and again tell it to sit down or stay.

Hope this is what you were after.

Jack Wilja Koolies

While I wish I had my own words of wisdom to add to Jacks comments, I don't. I just don’t have the years of experience that he and other working herders do. But I would like to pass on some things that our instructor told to Mr. Karolina Koolie and I while we were working our Koolies on Sheep at our last herding clinic...

A trained herding dog is recognizable by his mastery of three principles:
(1) Quiet control of the sheep in place
(2) Grip or active control of the sheep
(3) Quiet control of the sheep in motion

Our instructor went on to advise that passive or quiet control of the flock is achieved first of all through "presence" and only as a last resort the dog's presence can be augmented by barking on command. According to each situation, the basic principles are combined and changed or reversed as the situation demands. The herdsman holds the dog in control through its anticipation to hear the signals for action....

She also stressed the need to establish self-confidence in the dogs. This is a key component to the development of the dog’s ability to work. Our goal in training is to provide our dogs with experience so that he ranks above the sheep in the Man-Dog-Sheep pack. At the same time, we must make it clear to the dog that all sheep are members of the pack and not prey for the dog. Our instructor says that this means that sheep may need to be reminded to stay with the pack by being gripped, but they must never be injured or killed....

Through the work we have done with our instructor we have learned so much about how to handle and command our Koolie when around stock. We also learned that our dogs know much more than we ever will about working stock. So I guess it boils down to the dogs actually teaching us as well as the instructor teaching us…

I hope some of our experiences will help others… it seemed to have helped us…

Karolina Koolies

Hi karolinakoolie

Just a further note on working dogs.

Not every dog should be used as a working dog, If you have a look at my earlier post called a further test you will notice that I test the dogs before training them. This is done to find out if a dog is worth training.
A pup should have enough natural instinct and be hard enough to accomplish a given task.
A pup should herd 3 or 4 sheep together and keep them together nipping at times but not biting full on. A good dog should not kill anything but should control these sheep.
The dog Silhouette describes appears to be a natural header in that this dog will front a beast head on and try to block it's progress. this is the best type of dog to have. this dog should automatically go to the opposite side of the stock than the handler (natural) and try to push the stock towards the handler (natural). The handler should then be able to control the dogs movemants to bring the mob to the area that is required.
If you have a dog in a yard with sheep and the dog doesn't block or herd the sheep you could try to grab a sheep by the head and shake it from side to side with some verbal commands like come on to activate the dog and should then see the dog comming to your assistance.

A working day.

When I take a dog into a paddock this dog is told to stay behind me, when I arrive where I need to be I instruct the dog to GET OVER or GO BY and sometimes reinforce this with a Get Right Back command if the dog isn't casting back far enough.
the dog will then muster all stock together in a quite way and start pushing them towards me. I then only use a couple of cammands to finish the job.
I will tell the dog to SIT which means stay where you are or give cammands such as GET OVER OR GO BY to position the dog around the stock and again the SIT command if I want the dog to stop.
You can also use commands such as PUSH UP when the dog needs to push up but this will happend automatically with a dog and only needs to be reinforced when this happens with a command, A dog that is too pushy should be roused on as this upsets the stock and often disperses them.

Hope that all this makes sense.

Jack Wilja Koolies

Training a stock dog

equiptment required: a collar for the dog, a long lead aprox 10 metres long and a piece of 2" poly pipe aprox 1.5 metres long (may be longer or shorter to suit the user.

I will try to explain this in stages as I get time.

Firstly: The poly pipe is NOT there to hit the dog with.

To begin with test the dog to see if it is of a type that you require, Natural Header is best.

Once you have the right pup or dog you can start training this dog.

COMMANDS

All commands should be given in a stern vioce with determination.
Once a command is given the dog must obey.



1: TEACH THE DOG TO SIT.

PLACE THE DOG ON A LEAD AND THEN COMMAND THE DOG TO SIT AT THE SAME TIME PULLING FORWARD ON THE LEAD AND PUSHING THE DOGS BUM DOWN.
(this is different to obedience training where the lead is pulled backwards)
The reason you are pulling forward on the lead is so that when later the dog is some distance from you and you can't pull back on the lead you can pull forward on the lead see why this is done.

2: TEACH THE DOG TO STAY BEHIND YOU.

PLACE THE DOG ON A LEAD AND TAKE IT TO THE TRAINING AREA NOW SWINGING THE POLY PIPE FROM SIDE TO SIDE IN FRONT OF YOU SHOULD SEE THE DOG STAYING BEHIND YOU. THIS SHOULD BE REINFORCED WITH THE STAY BEHIND COMMAND.
The dog should be on a lead that will allow the dog some room to move but not long enough to run around the poly pipe when this is swung loosely from side to side.
You may find that the dog if it tries to come to far forward will be hit by the poly pipe, this is the time when the Stay Behind command is reinforced.

I use thelong lead when training the dogs but only let out as much as I need at any time.

I WILL SAY AGAIN THAT THE POLY PIPE INSN'T THERE TO HIT THE DOG WITH.

More to follow

Jack WIlja Koolies

Get Back Command

To teach a dog to get back you need to attach the long lead to the dogs collar
and take the dog and the poly pipe to the training area. It is always a good idea when taking the dog down to the training area to keep the dog behind by swinging the poly pipe loosly from side to side in front of you.
Now sit the dog about 2 metres in front of you and facing you ( you move to that position if the dog is in a sit position and is stable)
NOW RAISING THE POLY PIPE ABOVE YOUR HEAD AS IF TO THREATEN THE DOG AND IN A GROWLING MANNER COMMAND THE DOG TO GET BACK THREATENING THE DOG WITH THE POLY PIPE BUT NOT STRIKING THE DOG. WHEN THE DOG HAS RETREATED TO THE END OF THE ATTACHED LEAD COMMAND THE DOG TO SIT (IF THE DOG SITS STRAIGHT AWAY GOOD IF NOT AGAIN IN A GOWLING VOICE COMMAND SIT DOWN WHILE JERKING SLIGHTLY ON THE LEAD.
NOTE: Have you ever noticed that in a sheep trial the handler is always holding a short stick, this over time replaces the poly pipe.

When I say in a growling voice I mean just that growl the commands out so that the dog knows you are serious.

when the dog has completed the task call the dog to you and heap on the praise.

this should be done until the dog understands the command and is secure in the sit position before continuing.


Jack Wilja Koolies

CASTING CONTROL


To teach a dog to CAST you need to attach the long lead to the dogs collar
and take the dog and the poly pipe to the training area. It is always a good idea when taking the dog down to the training area to keep the dog behind by swinging the poly pipe loosly from side to side in front of you.
Now sit the dog about 2 metres in front of you and facing you ( you move to that position if the dog is in a sit position and is stable).

I should firstly explain what casting is all about. in casting you use a set of directional commands to direct the dog around stock.
This is best done in 2 circles either clockwise or anticlockwise.

Clockwise casting: I use the command GET OVER to direct a dog to go in a clockwise direction, This is indicated by holding my right arm out and seeing the dog go in the opposite direction.

This is taught by placing your dog in a sit position about 2 metres in front of you and facing you, COMMAND GET OVER AT THE SAME TIME AND WITH THE POLY PIPE IN YOUR RIGHT HAND HITTING THE GROUND OUT TO THE RIGHT OF YOUR BODY AT APROX 45 DEGREES WITH THE POLY PIPE, THE DOG SHOULD MOVE AWAY FROM THE POLY PIPE AS THIS IS A NATURAL SELF PRESERVATION ACTION. WHEN THE DOG HAS MOVED A CONSIDERABLE WAY IN THE CLOCKWISE DIRECTION COMMAND THE DOG TO SIT. WHEN THIS HAS BEEN COMPLETED CALL THE DOG TO YOU AND HEAP ON THE PRAISE AND I MEAN HEAP ON THE PRAISE.

Anti Clockwise Casting: I use the command GO BY to direct a dog to go in a anti clockwise direction, This is indicated by holding my left arm out and seeing the dog go in the opposite direction.

This is taught by placing your dog in a sit position about 2 metres in front of you and facing you, COMMAND GO BY AT THE SAME TIME AND WITH THE POLY PIPE IN YOUR LEFT HAND HITTING THE GROUND OUT TO THE LEFT OF YOUR BODY AT APROX 45 DEGREES WITH THE POLY PIPE, THE DOG SHOULD MOVE AWAY FROM THE POLY PIPE AS THIS IS A NATURAL SELF PRESERVATION ACTION. WHEN THE DOG HAS MOVED A CONSIDERABLE WAY IN THE ANTI CLOCKWISE DIRECTION COMMAND THE DOG TO SIT. WHEN THIS HAS BEEN COMPLETED CALL THE DOG TO YOU AND HEAP ON THE PRAISE AND I MEAN HEAP ON THE PRAISE.

This is the basis of sheep herding training that will produce a dog that can work sheep in any paddock.

There are further commands that can be introduced but here you have the basics.

I like many other farmers that train there dogs use this method and have great success with it.

You must remember that the Poly Pipe isn't to hit the dog with but to frighten the dog only. The dogs natural self preservation instincts should do the rest.

You should take this 1 step at a time and you will learn by your own experiences how best to proceed from here.

Just 1 final note:

Your voice is your greatest tool, pleasant to praise the dog and in a growling voice to command the dog. the only other thing you need to be is consistent and don't give commands over and over as this will only teach the dog that it doesn't need to obey.

Hope this explains the basics of trainig. there is a different training method on my website that can be used by people that don't have stock but wish to train their dogs in basic herding anyway.


Jack Wilja Koolies

To Silhouette.

I hope that this is helpfull to you and for the man you you spoke of.

To all other forum members
I hope that this gives you a basic understanding of what stock dog training is about.

I can't stress enough that you should start with a suitable dog.

Is there anyone else out there that has a different view ?
your input would give the readers of this forum at least some other aspects or ideas come on have a go.


Jack Wilja Koolies

For not wanting to cause an argument but the invitation was made; but what of the bitzas that were/are regularly trained by farmers/ stock riders et.al to carry out work?. I know we had a least three or four dogs in many years of undefinable heritage whom were able to be trained just because they were the dog found/given/won at darts/whatever at the time a dog was needed....suitablility did not enter the equation if some one was handing out pups at the footy. I know my da says a poor trademan blames his tools and I was always taught that any horse was amicable and any dog teachable. It's learning the way to teach that animal what you need it to do,I watched my family use various methods to get dogs to carry out things and cannot recall any two dogs being trained the same way...but being fasinated as to the actions and things carried out to get them to learn, which always included working them with an older, experinced dog AFTER the pecking order had been established an the older dog was above the other dog int he heirachy. I am not talking about spending hours with the dog in a paddock with one or two head of cattle, but teaching in the course of the days work...pups were always taken to the milking shed in a box and placed near the holding yard. Little things that did not take up too much time but all went towards training bit like placing your pup with the chooks earlier on I guess.

Dear Lawson Legend

I don't believe that a dog should be trained by an older dog for 2 reasons.

1: I think that every dog has some problem area and that if you trained 1 dog
with another you would possibly put this problem into the next dog trained
this of course would multiply the problems over time.
2: I think that every dog should be able to show it's full worth as this is
the only way breeding dogs can be fairly assessed for selection.

I think that if every dog you had was trained and was usefull you were very lucky as I have found some dogs that had no natural instict at all and these dogs would without doubt not be of any use to a farmer.
I think that you used the term milking shed which would suggest that you were on a dairy, this in itself is different then what a mormal sheep or cattle farmer would encounter. In a diary situation a dog only needs to hurry the cows up a bit if they are to slow getting to the shed. on the other hand you have a beef farmer who gets a truck in with new weaners and has to deal with these animals that have never seen a dog before. Or a farmer that has purchased a new bull and this beast is unruly and needs to be dominated by a dog so that this beast can be worked in the future.

So I believe that a cetain type of dog a natural Header would be the easiest dog to train and be of more use to a farmer than a natural Heeler that won't block a beast.

Jack Wilja Koolies

Thanks Jack, the information will be passed on, he won't be at the meeting on Sunday - he is heavily into agri-politics and reserves Sunday for family. TJ and I will be seeing him Thursday so will pass on the info. The interesting thing is he wasn't doing it before, I wonder if he feels more comfortable in this new home and his natural instincts are coming out. We are hoping to get some photos of him as well.

I must say that to say a dairy dog only has to hurry up slow cows does over simplify things a bit. A good dog will do that without taking chunks out of a valuable udder, move them calmly without curdling the contents but be able to stand up to cranky old girls that want to get back to their calves at the dairy yard, and manage young calves safely. Also there is often the trials of young stock that love to skip over electric fences and end up on the lucerne without mentioning the #%#@&# bulls!! Then there is the herd of beef cross steers. We marvel at a good dog that can adjust it's working style for all these situations, sometimes all in one afternoon! Our 15 year old still loves to sneak into the bull paddock, draw a line in the sand and tell him "go on you just cross that and I'll be on the end of your nose!!" I agree with Lawson that taking a young dog to the dairy yard is a good idea as they can just get a look at the goings on and the routine.

I agree with lavish praise for koolies, they just lap it up and are really in the job because it makes you happy.

Thanks

Thanks Silhouette, for taking the words right off my screen LOL. THe purpose of taking the pups to the shed and other places was to "proof" them against any fears they may have later...the more experiences the more stable the dog to all occurances. Anything can happen when you are working, poddies might break away, fences down and stock roaming amuck..they need to work in all situations. I did not train the dogs, I was a kid, my da, my granda ( who was also the local vet) my uncles trained the dogs for farm work, but I know alot of the info was drummed into me ( and still is)With regards to heading and heeling, we always ran two when moving stock...one with each trait. My old male ACD was a header, our bitch is a heeler...neither had been formally trained in stock control yet my cousin put them in with 6 cows and they worked wonderfully...even moved the stock to the gate when called to the gate. It was the Jemmas first time even near a cow!!! LOL

To Silhouette & Lawson Legend,

I didn't intend to say that dairy dog was less of a dog than any other working dog but was just trying to put across that I train my dogs to work in any area on any property or on a roadside etc. I am also setting up a long term breeding program for the Koolie breed and will only use the dogs I deem suitable for this purpose.
I can only assess these dogs if they are trained individually and to their full potential and then assessed without the influence of other dogs etc.
I don't believe in needing 2 dogs to do a single job and only use natural headers for this reason. The natural header will block a beast where a natural heeler that won't head can only do half the job, If the natural heeler won't block than it is to my liking not the sort of dog I would keep or breed from.
I am trying to breed usefull working dogs that will overcome any situation, to do this these dogs need to be Natural Headers with Instinct to burn and be hard enough to acomplish any task given.
I believe that breeding anything less than perfection will over time see the traits the Koolie are renowned for disappear.

Again I didn't intend to dismiss your dogs and only place posts in this forum to assist others with some of my experiences. I don't and won't place posts just to revoke a reaction. I agree that a pup should be introduced to as many things as possible and do as stated in this forum start my dogs on chickens at an early age.

The dog you mentioned now blocking etc may have been stopped by the last owner from doing just that as I have known sheep farmers that roused on dogs for being to their mind overly hard as they believed that the sheep would get damaged, it may be the size of the stock he is now expected to control and some unexpectd freedom to think for himself.
I find that care needs to be taken with Koolies in training as a simple no or uh uh in a given situation can be enough for the dog to believe that the action was indeed wrong and without further training the dog may not take that action again. I stated earlier that a dog should be trained according its temperament and mental makeup. These dogs are so smart that at times they may think that something is wrong when it isn't because we humans make mistakes

Jack Wilja Koolies

When they get going I just duck for cover and only come out when the dust settles.

I used to sit around the table and listen to my dad, grandpa, brothers and other male relations hold court on which was the best method, the bets dog, the best trade, the best car, bike etc, I think I'm home sick.

The world is full of opinions and don't we have a fair share.
Thanks Jack for giving a fig and actually putting it all in writing, this must take up a lot of your time, look forward to meeting you on Sunday.
Silhouette your right you have to walk a mile in any work boots to truly appreciate what is involved, it's all those bloody adds about the nice pretty cute Jerseys that give a false impression of how hard it really can be.
Reading these posts I understand that early exposure is always best, not just to stock, but everything, from noise to motion to the unexpected.
That our confidence is transferred to our dogs, if we approach training prepared and with confidence our dogs soon learn and gather their own while building trust in us as their boss.
Sue thanks for showing that all breeds are smart, all can be trained, just some who have been doing it longer, like a few generations make it easier.
Different courses for different horses.
I met a man who used a rake to get his dogs to back up, he would place the rake in front of the dogs feet, while the dog faced him on a long lead, loosening the lead he would say softly back and step forward, the dog seeing the rake approach its feet stepped back, the man praised him, then said again in a normal voice back and again stepped forward again the dog stepped back to avoid the rake, while I watched, the dog refused to back up, the man touch the rake to the dogs feet and the dog moved back, never again refusing to back when asked by the man.
After five minutes the man put away his rake, returned to the dog, took up the lead, held it loosely faced the dog and commanded back, the dog stepped back, I noticed that the man had never moved and ask when he had finished praising the dog, why he had not moved, he answered the dog was smart enough to know what to do without his baby steps.
That man was Ron SeaBrook and I just loved to watch him work.

No worries Jack....we wanted discussion and when the opportunity arises we are into it...don't think we were offended. But it is often good to see how the other half live. For me, you guys that can formalise and analyse your training methods are fascinating, us...well we just get out there with the dogs and when they do the right thing say "good on ya" and when they don't...do a lot of running and waving of hands. It is for this reason that I am so delight with how flexible our dogs are proving to be, they are running on pure instinct. I have posted before a story of our dogs, the men had gone right down the back of the farm where a heifer had swum the main irrigation chanel, they and 3 dogs had spent nearly an hour chasing her back and forwards trying to get her to cross back (the chanel was low and fairly muddy) she refused. Eventually the men gave up and began to bring the rest of the mob home, 2 of the dogs refused and kept stalking the heifer, the 3rd is dad's girl and goes where ever he goes and came with the mob... fair deal you only need 1 dog to push heifers up a dairy lane. 3/4 of the way home the one faithful dog turn and ran the 3/4 mile back to her mother & grandmother who had the heifer in the chanel and were barking gleefully and between them all got her to cross the channel and a large paddock and brought her all the way home at a steady trot. All dogs & heifer were covered head to toe in mud but were very pleased with themselves. We are happy to accept that at times our dogs are smarter than we give them credit for and at times than us.

There are 101 way to skin a cat, isn't it great listening to and discussing all those ways.

Hi All,

I often see farmers with a new dog that hasn't been trained only to find out later that the dog is no longer there. The farmer had preconceived ideas as to what the dog should do and when this didn't occur the dog was discarded.
I have a farmer living across the road that has sheep and disposed of many a good dog because these dogs went to the head of a group and on the opposite side from the man ( a natural thing for a working dog) this dog was then classed as useless by him and disposed of, He wanted the dog in front of him pushing the stock away from himself and the dog. I think that if a lot more people knew something about training a dog some of these problems could be overcome.


Jack Wilja Koolies

Great information Jack.
You are right…. Not all dogs should work. A agree that there has to be definite signs that the dogs has the drive and instinct to do work and work well. Our dogs work strong when needed but never hurt or harm the sheep or cattle that they are put on. We would never allow it. Our instructor stresses that the control of the dog is key. Like you describe, our dogs remain at heel until directed to COME BY or AWAY TO ME (these are our commands and the dogs respond well to them) I tried GEE and HA, but the horses seem better with those…. I can plow a whole field until dark with those two commands and our horses listen no problem, the dogs respond to different commands which works out well.

Like you, we stress the SIT command, is a vital component to the training process… SIT or LYE are the ones we use. Once the movement of the mob has been established we find that these commands work well to steady the movement of the mob. Too much pressure by the dogs can aggravate the sheep, a simple LYE or SIT stops or drops the dog where it is and allows the sheep to settle. We also use the PUSH command when in the stock chutes and have a difficult ram that wants to stand firm. You are right the dog does know what needs to be done with out the PUSH command, but since we are still “young” in herding, the dogs are still building confidence and they often look to us for “permission” to exact a bit more authority against the sheep. Once the PUSH command is given our dogs use the means needed to move that ram into the trailer or paddock. This of course is what works well with Jill because she is younger and is still testing the waters to see what she capable of. Jack our 11 year old male has no need to such reassurances, he knows what needs to be done and does it…. It is amazing.

Our herding experience is still limited to clinics and events but we are learning and I love your postings because I print them so I try your hints next time out. Thank you for sharing your wealth of experience.

We are all fortunate to have your expertise here on the forum, and I for one am thankful….because it takes that kind of sharing for new handlers…like me… to also build confidence.

Thanks again.


Karolina Koolies

To karolinakoolie

I see you are on the right track and am happy that you have found instruction

I will for you explain one other command that I often use on my dogs.

that is the steady command.

This is easily taught to a dog by taking the dog on lead on a brisk walk and then sudden;y slowing and commanding steady.

You may find this very usefull when you don't want to sit the dog down but would like to slow the dog down.

You should do this until the dog when the command is given slows down automatically.

then next time you are working sheep and just want the dog to slow down give it the steady command and you should be pleasently surprised.



Jack Wilja Koolies

Thanks Jack... I will work on that one this weekend.... these are all good suggestions and I thank you again for taking the time to post them...

Keep it up.... soon I might actually know what I am doing.....



Karolina Koolies

Unlike some of us who can't seem to get off the starting post, but this is the year of the dog and I'm going to get to work my dogs in June even if it kills me.
Great to see you posting Karolinakoolie, missed you on the road trip.
You need to see if you can make it back here next year, we are oragnising a convoy to SA already got two cars and always got room for more.

Funnily enough the term Jack uses to slow his dogs(steady) is the what we used to have them stop the stock moving or steady them, slow was to slow them down, go was for moving.

Hi All

Just a footnote

Training a working dog guide is just that, You can use any command you feel comfortable with for any action and use and implement such as a rake or stick or poly pipe as I do the main thing is to understand the principles behind the training methods commonly used by farmers.

The main thing is that you can send your dog around your stock in a clockwise or anticlockwise direction and stop them in any position around that circle and then perform any function from there.

There are probably hundreds of ways to train a dog to do the same thing and this is only one way that has been used for a long time and has been proven by farmers over time.

There are a lot more things that a dog can be taught, but this should give you some ideas to start with.

If you are having trouble in any area please ask as I am sure that someone reading this forum can help.


Jack Wilja Koolies

Hi Again,

I was away recently away from home for a while putting underground wiring in for my daughers new house and when I returned home my wife told me what I thought was a funny story.

She said that she had used one of my dogs namely Rex to put the chooks back into their pen and when this was done she closed the door as we usually do and returned inside.
Some time later she heard a lot of commotion outside and went to investigate
and found Rex at the door to the chook pen with a chicken pinned against the door that had been missed in the earlier round up. When she opened the door to the chook pen the chicken dashed inside and Rex sat at the door as if to say you left to early there was still one chicken to put away.
He didn't hurt this chicken just kept it pinned where it should have entered.
This is what a working dog is about, the determination to do the job without giving up and at the same time not hurting the animal.
I later discovered that my chickens have taken to perching in one of our orange trees and was probably because of this missed in the earlier sweep.

I laughed when I heard this story and had a strange internal feeling of pride for what the dog had accomplished.


Jack Wilja Koolies

Great story....anticipation is a wonderful thing, you just know he is going to come up with the goods. Look forward to hearing more as he progresses.

Hi Again,

Dear Silhouette I am looking forward to the time when some of my pup's are old enough to actually start training & working it always seems to take forever for a pup to grow up.
It is however always a good begining when a pup shows the signs that Rex and other pups have but this makes me a little impatient and wanting to start them to early (must show restraint).
I will down the track try making some video tapes of my dogs working different stock when I find someone that can handle a video camera better than I can handle a stills camera.

I don't however know if these could be displayed on the website?
eg what format these should be in or what size you can accomodate.

Jack Wilja Koolies

Hi Jack,



Yes they would be able... to be displayed on the website....format..mov, or wmv would be fine...approx 30meg size would be fine.

Hi Jack

That would be great, there is nothing better than seeing to believe. I defer to LocalHost on the technicalities and between us we'll get them up somehow.

So what age do you start them? And on what?

Hi Silhouette,

I usually start them on sheep at about 4 to 5 months by trying them without training to see what natural instincts they have and then if all is ok.
I will usually start training them at about 6 to 8 months or when I think they are mature enough.
I won't put a dog onto cattle until at least 8 months of age usually 10 to 12 months as they need to have self preservation instincts that often doesn't show until a dog is 10 months or older.
A pup is usually so gung ho that it would get hurt if started to early and that would certainly turn the dog off working. I also like the extra time to instill training commands and try to ensure that they see plenty of work but do not directly participate.I like a dog to be stable in the sit before I would consider it for work.

The training of a dog to be worked on sheep can start earlier but care needs to be taken as a young pup only has a short attention span which could turn the training session into a farce if you are not aware of the signs a pup is showing.

I also need time to train a dog which I often don't have, It doesn't matter a dog can easily be started at 3 or 4 years of age.

A dog that has previously been trained by someone else can easily be retrained by a new owner in a matter of weeks, The dog is smart enough to realise that the things it was used to are now called something alse etc.
The dog needs to learn the handlers traits as much as the handler needs to learn the dogs.

Jack Wilja Koolies

Hi Jack

It's good to see someone prepared to take a bit of time, it is very frustrating when people complain their dog doesn't work and you ask what age it is...only to be told 6 months. Then they want to know what they can do and don't appreciate being told "be patient!"

So, another question, starting a 3 or 4 year old dog...where do you start?

Hi Silhouette

If the 3 or 4 year old dog hasn't been worked before the training is the same as for a pup except that you can train an older dog for longer periods than a pup. This dog should have a much longer attention span.
The dog should still be tried on sheep or goats or similair to accertain its value.
I can't stress enough that a suitable dog (natural Header) would be my only choice as this type of dog can simply accomlish any task given whether it be trailing a dog on sheep or working steers in paddocks.
If the dog has worked before and you know that it is a natural header all you need to do is retrain it to your commands in the same way as you would train a pup. A dog of this type should allready know what casting is about and you only need to teach it what command you are going to use to enact the required response.
It is however important that the dog first understands what is right and wrong and that you have a good repore with this dog.

Hope this helps


Jack Wilja Koolies

Hi Again,

A further note.

When I was trained by some expert trainers to train professional dogs several things were explained to me. Firstly to imprint something on a dogs mind you needed to reinforce a given thing for 6 days as 1 or 2 days lead only to short term memory so all training should be taken in stages and 1 stage should be continued for 6 days to instill this on the dogs mind.
I have in the past dealt with a lot of problem dogs and can tell you that the 6 days works wonders on a dog.
You also need to be aware of the dogs mental makeup and adjust your training to suit the dog. A dog that has been mistreated by someone else may still make a good dog once you have built up it's confidence.
A dog that is to be trained to work sheep and doesn't appear to have any blocking traits can sometimes be fixed when first introducing this dog to sheep by grabbing the head of a sheep and shaking it from side to side while encouraging the dog to assist, this should see the dog comming to your assistance and nipping at the sheeps head. I usually when introducing a pup to sheep for the first time also place the pup on top of the 3 or 4 sheep to see if is is stable and praise it for being there.

Hope that this explains what you were after.

Jack WIlja Kolies

Hi All

I have just checked and found that lots of people have viewed this topic
and hope that if you have any other suggestions that you assist other readers of this topic with possibly some other ideas.

Please feel free to post any successes or failures don't be shy.
Lots of people out there don't know a lot about training a working dog and would love some stories ,tips and methods etc.

If you have encountered a problem and have found a good solutiuon please let others know so that they can share in the wisdom of all others.


Jack Wilja koolies

Bumping this topic with a question....

My Grandfather said to me once, never breed too much working instinct into a line as you create over-workers, dogs too fixated & consumed by their stock to be reliable & efficient (my grandfather was a shearer & loved his Kelpies, he also was a longterm worker & friend of the famous Wyreema Kelpies)....

What are your thoughts on this?

I think he is dead right & I think it is very clearly apparent in the Kelpies/BC's....you sometimes come across dogs with so much instinct & talent that they are useless as they are dogs that can't do much else but get in & stay on their stock regardless of their handlers ability or commands.
As a child I remember many dogs destroyed (we had team of 40dogs split over 3 workers) as you couldn't control them, the older they got the worse they got, dog that would slip the chain & drive stock through fences paddock after paddock & could hardly be controlled by the strongest/bullish man. They would breed great workers to workers that had more obedience than drive.

I recently witnessed a very well bred Kelpie pup a local acquaintance purchased from a very 'famous' kennel, this pup was not even 10mths old when he started to become an over-worker & was entirely out of control at 18mths old, the owner a very good handler was at the point that he just could no longer cope with the dog & when he contacted the kennel they said that is was quite normal & he needed to be harder on the dog, he said someone familiar with this line told him to tie the dog to a tyre for a week in the paddock to teach the dog to slow down & he'd be easier to catch up to if he bolted & pursued stock.

I think this is also apparent in 3sheep trial bred dogs, all they can do is simulate trials in many lines (not all), entirely useless to work, I share this opinion with many many district farmer that won't touch trial bred dogs from BC or Kelpie breeding with a 50foot stick.


Do you think that if working ability is the primary focus in the Koolie, where the instict is continually trying to be improved RATHER than maintained, this could happen?

Good question Mushoz, the main reason we continue to send the message of focus on working lines is to insure that the general public, new people looking at breeding koolies and older breeders understand that we are united in retaining the good working ethics that the Koolie has become known for.

As most of us who breed the Koolie such as yourself fully appreciate that no dog is any good without obedience, and you can't have obedience without a high willingness drive.

It all goes hand in hand you can't have one without the other.

When we do demonstrations, expos, ag shows, take enquiries for koolie or rehome a rescue those who man the information sites insure that when speaking about the koolie all aspects of the breed are equally covered, it is how we explain why they are so adaptable and good at everything from Sport, Service and of course stockwork.

In each newsletter, every article and piece of information placed out on the Internet the Koolie Club is careful to show Agility, obedience and trial results from herding and yard and community family days as well as publish as many personal stories from the many owners from all walks of life as diverse as the breed itself.

The only time I have seen imbalance in working dogs or any breed for that fact, is when breeders focus on one drive or one trait, one style or feature and forget to take the dog and its purpose as a whole then it all goes to hell in a hand cart.

I know you can appreciate that with your sibes

Which is why it is so good when you pose a question like this, it gives us the opportunity to collect the different values we place on the breed and put it out there to add to the good information already on the Internet.
Thanks for the opportunity to share.

Yes it comes down to a specific focus on working ability above all else, & is not something that can be done overnight, but when I look at some lines of Kelpie & BC where it is a shared opinion with those I discuss it with, I wonder if the Koolie could go the same way.

I think there is a big difference between maintaining working instinct & key traits as a package, rather than just improving the ability to work.

I think keeping a dog with appropriate instinct & obedience & matching it with a mate that can improve the PACKAGE, including temperament, colour/merle, conformation & ability is more important that chosing a mate based on it being a great worker alone.

I agree with you and I doubt very much you would get any argument for your sound thinking.

I wish that some people would put as much thought into having children before they have them as honest registered Koolie breeders put into their decision to breed.

I have the greatest faith in the Koolie breeders of yesterday and their ability to pass on their valuable knowledge gained over many generation to us the next generation and our genuine passion for this breed to see it solidly represented into our grandchildren’s lives.

I am by no way a breeder or anything but I will put in my two bobs anyway!!! I think that the Koolie is a rounded and complete dog. It can do a days work but on the other hand it can go and do an agility trial the next or just be this great family pet. They are just a great dog that would do what ever you ask of them. I feel that the BC has been breed into almost two seperate dogs. The ones focused on working that they will do nothing else and then the one that look good for showing or obedience work etc. I think the Koolie is in great hands with the current breeders out there that have the breeds best interests at heart

At the moment it is, but I hope it continues that way as the population grows & more breeders pop into the equation where matings are decided by complete packages rather than selection based on either/both colour & work ability, I think like any breed the Koolie's traits can be 'lineage' dependant...ie. working, obedience/agility, companion bred just like the other breeds.

My Huskies are like this, show bred or race bred, both 2 entirely different dogs & this happened through simply populaity boom for either showing/conformation & racing & the damage done over just a 10yr period out here is unbelievable, the racing dogs can't forfil their original purpose (neither can the showdogs) as speed was bred into them..speed speed speed & it changed the breed entirely to the point you have dogs that don't last much past 5yrs old & are mental basket cases that can't run any distance like they were designed to, seeing how fast this occured in Australia away from the mid-long distance speed races where dogs are bred to cover 60km max, it has flipped the breed entirely in a short period of time through a simply focus not for the package that the Husky is meant to be.

My personal opinion is that it needs to be considered if the breed continues to build popularity as the Koolie as a whole is a package.

Mushoz, do you think this happened because there was something 'wrong' with the dogs that only developed in later life and so didn't 'matter' for dogs at racing age, or did they just breed fruitloops that had the physical stuff but not the mental stuff?

I was wondering whether a more gradual change (you said this happened really quickly) would have allowed stuff to show up before dogs had been bred or bred so many times? Or would that not have mattered anyway?

I like Ian Dunbar's idea that we should preferentially use older dogs for breeding - so that we know alot about the dog before it is bred. He said, I think, that the perfect stud dog is 10yrs old. Although, I wonder whether an inexperienced 10yr old would be a vrey competent breeder <g>.

No pure greed to breed dogs for racing glory which is a purpose that they weren't meant for, the only focus has been speed & early maturing, dogs that can reach peak performance at 2yrs & literally break down by 5 & age prematurely as these older dogs are of no concern to those involved, some kennels overseas have 50 youngsters waiting to take their place. This isn't isolated to a handful of lines this is across the breed in the racing lines & has come to the surface in Australia as overseas the races are much much longer here they are very very short so they are doing away with the traits that make the breed what it is, & instead focus on dogs that can cover short distances like lightening whether they can be controlled or not, their mind & other things just don't matter.

Overseas some kennels breeding racing huskies breed many puppies a year to get 16 of the best BUT these dogs must be able to last the distance, out here we don't have the numbers so they focus on speed, over short distances where the dog only has to last that short distance not a few hundred KM in subzero temps....this is why the change has happened so fast, I have had 2 'well bred' racing dogs here that if they were my own I kid you not they would be shot as these dogs are so 'mad' they have no quality of life, yet this is the norm for them being mad means they are too stupid to rest so they sprint their hearts out regardless of the damage they do to themselves hence why they break down.

A husky is a long distance endurance dog that should have the instinct to self preserve so they make it to the end, not be strapped to a lightweight gig & sprint 10km infront of a lycra clad musher aiming to win a bag of dogfood & a ribbon.

Here's a pic of the difference, the red/white dog is my 4th generation 'working' husky, the blue eyed dog next to him is an Australian racing Husky, 1yr older than the red/white dog & a absolute basket case of a dog, her grandfather was the same type as my red dog, & in 3generations this is what has happened.


I'm not much liked in the racing world (nor the show world as the husky is the same as the work v's show BC) but when this is what they are doing to our breed I feel I have a right to be angry!

Not saying that this can happen in the Koolie, but yeah when 1 thing is particular is focussed on, a lot of other traits are likely to be lost, having seen the overworking drive in some Kelpies des make me wonder.

I agree with breeding older dogs, but sadly humans are impatient & greedy, if you breed a dog that is very much untried then you must have a longterm goal for improvement generation by generation & not just throw 2 together for the sake of it as the doggie population is big enough already. On the flip side if you wait & wait there is no going back if you lose that individual champion through death & all of it's potential genes goes with it....

Yes, it would certainly increase the amount you have invested in that dog working out as a sire.

But I think it would also reduce the over-use of particular individual dogs which for most breeds would be a good thing. Although I don't get the impression that that is as much of a prob in Koolies, where most ppl seem to use their own sires over their bitches, rather than going to some super-star sire who already has gazillions of progeny and so is going to exert a really big influence on where the breed goes. It seems to me that if you want to keep the breed steady rather than aiming for change, using a diversity of sires makes sense rather than only a small elite as is considered a good, responsible breeding practice in show/competition-focussed breeds.

completely agree! The koolie is lucky not to have the numbers, but even so you have to wonder what it will be in 10-20yrs time if people aren't sensible.

What does reassure me is that, if I was into BCs, ACDs or Kelpies, I could still find a dog of a more old-fashioned type even if most of the dogs around were Barbies or lumps of plasticine on legs. I'd just have to look harder.