I was told by a farmer at a herding workshop that the "show" border collies are now called 20litre drums on legs!!! LOL I thought this was funny. You are right, the "real" dogs are still out there you just have to look harder. Here's hoping we never have this problem with the Koolie. I think that while we are not recignised by the ANKC we stand half a chance.

I think the question was taken the wrong way, I'm not asking whether we need worry about the split in types I asking whether people think it is possible to create too much work ethic/drive in dogs by focussing on that trait oppossed to an overall package that makes the Koolie what it is now, not so much damage in the immediate future but the Koolie isn't yet as recognised at the BC & Kelpie when it comes to trials etc. so if their numbers grow through exposure & popularity do you think the breed can be vonerable to having their working traits changed away from a reliable, sensible dog with an 'off button' that has eye for the mob not individuals?

Sorry you are right, I got a little off topic and lead everyone with my while I was on my little soap box!!! My point was that I think that would be the case if they became more popular with famers that want to move stock well and quickly, but on the other hand if they become popular with the "family" type situation then I believe that they may go the other way and they will lose their drive. I am not really sure, maybe we should just not tell anyone about Koolies and keep them all to ourselves, then we will have no problems.
It is a very good question to ponder!!!

Mushoz, I think your experience with the Sibes shows that anything is possible in a short space of time, if somebody wants to do it. But let us hope no-one does.

Is the typical Koolie way of working successful in 3 sheep trials? Or would that require the dogs to have a different way of working, perhaps have more eye? (I just typed 'more eyes' - now that would be a case of amazing skill in breeding lol) Because it seems to me that the more they have to be changed to be successful in a sport the more likely it is that they will lose other valuable characteristics.

Is a lot of eye associated with stressy, intense personalities? My observation of BCs makes me think it is. If it was necessary to increase the amount of eye Koolies used, that would surely change their general behaviour. I think...??

It's just more of a hypothetical questions that others have brought up with me, & has been discussed numerous times within the Kelpie people here I know.

I think it is fair to say that any breed with loose characteristics if they aren't primarily focussed on & 1 trait in particular is selected above all else & bred for generation after generation, be it physical, mental or instinctual.

Consider that the Koolie has been bred since the 1800's for a general farm dog, this is what it excells at - spending the day working by his owner's side and often the evening under the kitchen table. We know from DNA we have good genetic diversity, so no the influence of a few super sires have not been the same or so dangerous as other breeds - thank goodness. But you have to wonder at the future if they were popular in 3 sheep trials where that would lead, fortunately 3 sheepers seem so biased against everything non BC or Kelpie it is not likely to happen. Fortunately yard trials are becoming more common and if they must be trialed this seems a better place. As a committee member I can tell you (no matter what anyone outside might accuse us of) we are not seeking recognition for the koolie, we can only see disaster if the koolie was on the show bench or for that matter "mainstream". Yes I am quite happy to keep the secret of the koolie to ourselves and let koolie minded people like yourselves find the koolie and seek out more information before plunging in with a "I must take this breed to the world" attitude. I can't see that this breed can be improved, it is perfect now in my eyes, I think the challenge will be preserving it just as it is.

You are right silhouette, we need to preserve the Koolie as they are. We are already getting the Koolie recognised on the Sporting Register and that is really as far as we want it. That was done so that people with Koolies that enjoy these type of dog sports didn't have to get their animals desexed to compete and could still breed from them. I would reaaly love to have another Koolie like Lissa, but because didn't know where she originated and the fact that she had to be desexed to compete makes it almost impossible to find another like her. Farmers that saw her wanted to use her with their dogs and where quite dissappointed that she was desexed. We can't afford to concentrate on only one trait of the koolie because we want them to have brains and beauty and if it went to ANKC recognition then they would be bred for looks and what are brains??? As have many of the other pure bred dogs have had happen. For instance Schnauzers where bred as an alround farm dog, herding, guarding stock and guarding produce, ratting etc, now they just look too beuatiful to be able to do the work and their coats would be almost impossible to keep clean, with all their sof t fluff. Mini's where downsized for mainly ratting and mousing, couldn't see those fluffies doing that. The traits are still there but they are very well hidden.

jtkoolie

This is very interesting, I am thinking of how the way a particular Koolie works, could affect the way I would have to train for my agility.

Going back to what Jack was saying about the natural tendancy to head or heel, I am thinking that a natural header would always be trying to get ahead of you, and face you, thus getting itself into a good position where it would be able to see body language commands easily. Jack, do you think a nautural heeler would have a tendancy to try and get in behind you and heel you, the handler, in the absence of sheep, or other moving target?

I have seen a number of borders and 1 NZ "heading" dog do this, to the extent of biting the handlers feet.

No I doubt this very much, Jack is no longer on this forum that I know of..

The Koolie is usually a header from my research & experience...none that have come to me since I got into Koolies have been heelers, they I don't think are prone to want to heel or round up their owners like other breeds can be prone to as they have an off switch, but they will try to round up other dogs etc. but alot of it comes down to training & telling what they can & can't do.

I haven't done competitive Obedience or Agility but those I know that do with Koolies find them very good as they seem to stream their herding instinct into another form & put that effort towards their agility etc.

The Koolie is a much more settled breed, but I have seen some very hyped up individuals likely through inappropriate training but hence my raising this question.

When I do/see agility with Koolies they always look to me like 'moderately' instincted dogs - like they can think without switching into instinct mode too easily or strongly. Which is one of the things I like about them.



Were they working dogs? or doing sport?

workers & a few people I know with Koolies used for trick/stunt work which tried sports, have individuals (won't say where they came from) that are constantly in a excessive hyped up state that look like they need a hit of vallium just to sleep.

When I was searching for my Koolies, seeing a couple of these dogs really put me off, but knowing it wasn't the breed in general I just had to put temperament at the top of my list.

I was horrified to read your post on Sibes, Mushoz, that must be so hard on you, to see the gradual degradation of such a fabulous breed, I know you will do everything in your power to protect the koolie from going down the same path.

I believe that an answer may be discovered though genetics, I feel that the breed specifity test may deliver a better understanding of the breed.

I know it is impossibly to dictate to genes what they must do, for they will do what they ruddy well like, no matter how we try to influence them.
But there are rules, we just haven't found them yet, what if this test uncovers that breeding Koolie to Koolie will eventually have them just where the sibes find themselves now.

What if through genetics we discover that to maintain our current version of the Koolie we must, every four generations utilized a different working breed, it is a method that has been used by many old breeders for ever, but why do they do it, is it because they like the results, or they can't find other Koolies or their just following a pattern started by their fathers before them.

In the case of older breeding, if they did that with the Doberman the breed would not now dieing off at an alarming rate, all due to the introduction of an American stud which was so used that it is in almost every line in Australia and he died at the age of 6 due to cardiomyopathy, (not sure on the spelling) heart attack basically, a genetic disorder not detected until the animal is five.

I breed my girls at two because they make the perfect mothers, supplying the best start to a steady stable Koolie, when I have used older maiden bitches they are disinterested, unhappy to birth, stressful, and less devoted or tolerant of their pups.
I do not breed a bitch before two years old.

Recognition will never work for the koolie breed in its current accepted level of indulgence to specialized breeding, what Mushoz calls focusing on just one attribute, but it doesn't mean the koolie will remain unknown, right now thanks to the internet, this very forum and people in service and sports the Koolie is the most recognized unrecognized Breed in Australia.

Just by refusing to accept recognition we take a risk just like the American BC club did when they refused to accept recognition, there was a breakaway group and they were recognised in their place, so now America is flooded with useless bred botox BC and the infighting is endless, harsh, cruel and has harmed the BC rep for ever.

We already have a darkside do we really want to go down that path, the only way the koolie will remain, or retain or still be the truly remarkable breed it is for all of us today, is if the Koolie Club of Australia is recognised as the only source of information, the only credible and reliable place go to for anything about koolies, when a breeder sells a pup it will be to a new member because they take the time to get to know that person to share with that person their feelings and passion about this breed that they make the new owner understand that by buying one of their Koolies they are becoming part of the Koolie community.

I say the fee is so dam cheep it's worth it just for the newsletter, and then that new member is invited here to grow and to workshops and trials to learn and teach and their passion strengthens and unites us more, just as you have done and we have done before.

So keep sending out the message of what is the whole, it's not just a breed, it's not just a group.
We are all part of the Koolie Club of Australia discussing the whole, there are no Koolies on this forum, just people who have come together like minded, attempting to learn something and to give something in return, this is the friendliest place on the internet and we are all very proud of that fact.
We are part of the whole, wouldn’t you agree Mushoz.

I really have to work on shorter responses.

The Koolie, or any breed can only follow suit of where the racing huskies have gone IF the desire for better & better & better working ability is the only factor to chosing matings.

The Huskies, & other breeds, have this definate split between show dogs which are mostly short legged, stocky dogs with plush coats & never seen a harness is how many generations, & the racing dogs are where conformation etc are forgotten, they are only bred to run & pull like cut snakes over short distances.

I think there is 1 thing that ruins any dog breed, or horses even for that matter as I have this gripe in horses too, that what makes a breed so great is never just left to be maintained, people just have to improve improve & improve OR on the flip side they assume the trait will just carry through & breed pairs without much thought & can lose that trait ...like the show BC

Excellent point Mushoz, also another reason not to have a "standard" for the breed. I agree with you in horses also, but we also have the same problem in the dairy cattle. There is a show sector which are a little extreme but we all earn our living making milk and if you breed to only one trait (or 3 or 4 for that matter) you pay for it in the bucket, no production. You have to learn to consider all major traits in both parents but also learn to trade off what you might loose for what you might gain and you end up planning not only this mating but often the next generation at the same time. This shows the advantage of having a recorded history of your line because you can see what they have thrown before so are likely to throw in the future and future generations, which makes registration and DNA so important. It will not only let us plan our matings better but maintain our genetic diversity which will slow down the chances of something similar happening to the koolies as the sibes.

The future's so bright I got to wear shades

Hi

One of the great things about the Koolie is the diversity in the breed as to hair length color etc. By the same token you can tell a Koolie straight away regardless of its color scheme. Their temprement seems to me to be one of their outstanding points and that they can turn to almost any type of work they are given.

They can be working sheep one moment then helping you get over a personal loss the next. What they do best is whatever you ask them to do.

Just my thoughts on the matter

Regards

Lockie

Well said Lockie! Another thing that could be said is..."if it aint broke, don't fix it!"

Touche!!

[color=#6666CC]

To All,

I have been off line for some time but am now back thanks to the gov't broadband guarantee.

Just some thoughts:-

If the Koolie Breed is a working breed shouldn't it then be able to work.

I think that a good koolie is one without genetic problems that is quick and agile with good working instincts.

I also think that this dog would excell in agility and obedience classes etc

I think that for the Koolie to proceed into the future it is important that the working traits be preserved and that we strive to breed out any genetic problems.

As I have probably said before on the forum I once bought a Koolie that was scared of my chickens and was going to use this dog on cattle.

If the breed is split it will eventually become redundant, As so many dogs would be affected that it would become harder to find a good worker that the Koolie is now famous for.


Jack @ wilja koolies

I have five Koolies and they all do Obedience and Sheep work, one is up to Open in Obedience . I have only had Ruthie for two years so did not have the early ground work with her, but Ruthie has picked it up very quickly and is doing very well.
Her sheep work is just run through the sheep and then stand beside me. My two rescues Roxie and Dylan work sheep very well both have been in three sheep trials and Yard trials and have their Pre -Trial Titles. They are both doing CCD Obedience. Mitzy does Obedience and sheep. Shelley who works cattle is now working sheep and becoming a very handy dog. I will start doing Obedience with Shelley as she just loves to work with me.
All the Koolies I have rescued from a very bad situation, in no time are just forgiving us humans and just giving so much love. Dylan who was beaten by his old owner, just love to come for a pat now, Koolies are very forgiving, once they know they will not be harmed. Every koolie I have placed in their new home their new owners all say what a great and loving dog the Koolie is. So to have the working drive and their lovely nature, makes them every easy to train in what ever you want to do with them, plus they are also very happy to sit beside you on the lounge and have a pat or cuddle.
Trudy.

so true. and go shelly i have her son Chance here and he is looking good and already trying to work the sheep

HiAll

Back from the wilds of Mockinya.................the wood season has overwhelmed me.

All good points. Look at Dottie..........beaten & starved half to death and locled in a 6 x 6 cage with no shelter for the first 18 months of her life. When we got her she was a meare 8 kg in weight.

Look at her now. Confident assured and a great nature.

I have never come across a Koolie with a mean bone in its body and we have had them for 30 years. All they want is to please. Show them how and they will do it.

I think that what makes a good Koolie is the fact that they are a Koolie combined their owners attitute to them. Cruel owner, sad dog!

Regards

Lockie

The first two photo's of Dotti nearly broke my heart but the last one made me smile again, she looks so happy now, you deserve a medal .

I have only had the one Koolie and that is Ceejay. But what attracted me to the breed is their temperament and personality, and in part their looks. What I like about Ceejay is that she is quick, smart and loves everybody. She is independent and thinks quick on her feet.

But I agree with Lockie in the wrong hands a Koolie would be a handful with the more inexperienced dog owners or the ones that are not willing to put in what the dog needs. Someone that expects a Koolie to be fine stuck out in the backyard 24/7 without too much interaction.

And what makes a good koolie, I think depends on the owners, their is no set "good" what one person wants would be different from the next. Yes their working ability is a trait that is desired and some dogs do take longer to mature (just like humans). I like the fact that no two koolies look the same, I like the fact that they are bred for the brains and temperament and I like the fact that they are not treated like an accessory to have because that breed is a passing fad and I like the fact that what you put in they give twice as much out.

One of my fears since getting to know this breed is that the koolie becomes an "it" dog. I shudder to think of any dog neglected but a dog with high energy drive and intellect like the koolie acquired as a fashion accessory just fills me with horror. I do tell people who admire Paxy for her looks that she is a working dog with lots of energy and needs lots of mental stimulation too.

Well Mushoz I think this thread lends a lot of strength to the message that the Koolie club and our members, like yourself are sending and have been sending since 2000 to the general public.

We breed for the complete Koolie and we work actively to maintain the quality of the Koolie’s who are in our care.

Looking back over the past eight years the message is even stronger and clearer thanks to threads, articles and discussion just like this all over Australia.

Keep up the effort, your all doing a tremendous job on behalf of the Koolie breed .